Makena: Welcome back. We are talking about “The Art Of Seeing Between The Lines” today. Hi, Gigi.

Gigi: Hello, Makena. Everybody’s like, “What?”

Makena: “What on earth are they talking about?” 

So, what is the art of seeing between the lines? I think we’ve been looking for a way to describe this because it’s like—let’s call it a superpower.

The way I like to think about it is if you were a real-life superhero or if you had a cool magic power, I feel like this would be it for you: the art of seeing between the lines. It’s something that I think is a unique, maybe natural gift of yours, but you’ve also developed it.

You’ve taught it to me to a large degree, and you teach it to some of our clients in your mentorship program. So, I wanted to describe this because I think most people have no idea that something like this even exists. Let’s talk a little about it. 

First of all, maybe we just touch on what the art of seeing between the lines is.

What does this allow you to do when you cultivate this skill? 

It allows you to—you said, read a room. Can you think of some other examples?

Gigi: To see the intentions of people, often. Also, identify leaks in any business system. I can walk into a business, and I can often feel and sense what’s going on with the people and everything.

It really allows you to build deeper connections with people because you can see the deeper desires, the pains, what’s going on beneath the surface, which is one of my gifts that I’ve really crafted. So, when I sit down with anyone, I see this. I don’t look for it, but I see it.

I can also see where to take your life or business and what the likely results of your decisions will be. If you chose this direction, what’s going to happen? 

The fascinating thing—let me just interject—I can see this in everybody else’s life, but not in mine.

Makena: So, the art of seeing between the lines does not necessarily—well, you do have this in your relationships. You can still see things with people, but in terms of where to take your life, that part’s still hard.

Well, good thing you have this for me, so I’m grateful to have your influence in my life. I try to do it for you, but I’m not sure I have quite the aptitude. 

So, before we go into describing—because that’s a lot of interesting things, and I want to dive deeper into them—what does it mean to read a room? 

I have a lot of questions, but how did you develop a skill like this? Where did this even come from?

Gigi: I think it’s always been a natural gift. Even as a child, I can see where I really supported in a drug abuse program for a while.

I started working early in my teens with people, around the AA steps, but it was for drugs, right? By doing groups with people, I would sit in those and start to see what was going on in their lives.

Then, what happened when I stumbled upon my personal development journey was I went to my first workshop. I sat there and watched the facilitator put people in front of the room, interview them, and ask questions like, “What do you want?” We would watch for them to light up. I was fascinated by this because I already had a curiosity.

So, this gave me new skills. This is also what we do in our work. 

The first part of my craft was learning to observe people without judgment. 

I’d say, the biggest thing about seeing between the lines is being in a neutral state.

Makena: Can you describe that experience for me? 

I mean, we’re going to go into different ways that this shows up or how people can use this skill. But when you’re in that state, what does that feel like, or what do you see? How do you experience it?

Gigi: It’s a neutral state. The skill we teach is curiosity—being really curious, sitting back and being receptive. It’s all the skills we teach. We teach our coaches to sit in the seat of the coach. When you relax like that, there’s no… well, I don’t know.

Makena: But what do you see? How do you experience that state?

Gigi: I experience it like, you know, I told you it’s like The Queen’s Gambit. If you’ve seen that series where she sees the chess pieces—it’s like seeing a vision. 

I see the vision of either the room, reading people’s intentions, or the dynamics at play. It just comes in, and I sense and see what’s there. I don’t know how to describe it.

Makena: Well, I want to describe that scene because most people probably haven’t seen it. So, The Queen’s Gambit on Netflix—she’s a chess master. There’s a scene where she’s lying in bed. I think she’s a little crazy or high or something, but she’s lying in bed and seeing these huge chess pieces on the ceiling in her mind. She’s moving them around and playing entire games of chess in her mind. She’s seeing all the different outcomes and getting better and better by playing chess inside her mind. 

I love that description because I often refer to you that way. It feels like having a chess master who sees 10 steps ahead on the board. 

Of course, we can’t predict the future, but your influence in my life is like—when you say something like “Go this direction,” or “Do this,” I look back on those moments and see major turning points.

Where you told me to do this instead of that. 

I’m always asking you, “What do I do? What do you see?” 

We have so much trust there. 

When you’ve told me those things—when they felt aligned for me and checked out against my own desires—I took action. That would become this “two roads diverged in a wood” moment, where if I’d taken a left, I don’t know where I’d be. But by taking right, I can see the ripple effect for years to come in a really positive way.

That’s like seeing all the pieces on the board as you go into that state. You somehow see that, right?

Gigi: It’s more like people are like that for me—people are my chess game. I’ve honed my craft for so many years. I’ve sat in workshops for 15 or 16 years, interviewing people in front of the room. When I interview people, I go into this state of complete receptivity—like I said, a neutral state.

In that state, there’s an element of trust. I’m not trying to influence them in any direction. Sometimes people will think that, especially if resistance comes up. But all I do is relax enough to see what they often want but won’t admit to themselves. I reflect that by asking questions or by digging deeper.

That’s a practiced skill. I’ve developed that ability by learning to observe without any kind of agenda. 

Of course, I’m human. There will be times when I have an agenda, like with my kids, or I can get off like anyone else. 

But I will tell you this—I’m very aware when I get off. I can feel it, and I feel the push or pull of wanting something to happen.

Makena: And you’re saying interviewing people, this is the process, kind of like the soul reveal process, right? Will you describe that? Because you did this with me when I was floundering and struggling to figure out what I wanted and where I wanted to take my life. You took me through this process over the course of a couple of days, and I didn’t really know you were doing it at the time. 

Can you describe what a soul reveal is? Because people don’t have any context for that.

Gigi: It’s a journey of digging deep into what you want at this time in your life—where you’re going, or what you see. 

I do that by sitting with you and asking questions in such a way that we don’t try to make decisions. We talk. I do this by taking walks with people, allowing them to unwind and have complete trust. They can share their deepest fears—the things they can’t say to anyone else.

I’m not a therapist, so I’m not going to take them back to their past. Not that therapists always do that—I value therapists—but this is different. 

And so, out of my neutralness, people start to see themselves. They start to see what they want. I have an ability to hold space for the person, allowing them to walk and talk through, as I said, things they can’t even be honest about with themselves often. When we speak it into the world and they’re able to voice it, something happens.

Their soul gets revealed. 

They start to feel and sense what they want and who they are. 

Often, we have to go through some of the pain in their life or things that have been sitting on their hearts for a long time. But through this process, they reawaken, or sometimes wake up for the first time in their life, and really see what they want, who they are, and where they want to go. 

For you, that was the experience. You didn’t have anyone to hold space for you like that.

Makena: This was pivotal. This was a true turning point, and that’s why I tell the story all the time. The experience on the other side of that—being asked those questions—wasn’t like we were just sitting in a room. Like you said, we were walking, talking, getting out, relaxing, and getting a massage.

The experience was that I was in my life, and it felt like the blinders were on, like I couldn’t see past my experience. I was trying to work through this problem of why I was feeling stressed and anxious all the time, and what I wanted to do next. I couldn’t break through to see anything. When you guided me through this experience, first of all, I relaxed in a way I don’t think I had relaxed in years. This often happens when women come to our retreats, and with men as well. There’s this deep relaxing and unwinding, and it took me out of the loop.

I was no longer looping around and around. I relaxed, and my vision opened in a way. It was my first experience of seeing between the lines, where I started to see in a different way as you asked me questions. New thoughts or ideas, or old ones I had forgotten, started to pop in. I began to have more clarity come through.

Like you’re saying, there were fears and pains underneath. There were things we had to talk about, for them to come up and be expressed, because they were in me, and I didn’t even know they were necessarily there on a conscious level. I think those were getting in the way of me truly getting clarity and moving forward in my life.

That’s why I always describe this experience as a moment of clarity dawning, because I saw something different. I saw my life stretch out in front of me. I started to see those visions and desires and everything else. This was really the first time you guided me through this experience—the soul reveal. It was my first glimpse at seeing between the lines in my own life.

Gigi: We had to get to neutral ground to do that. If we’d been sitting in your home, I probably wouldn’t have gotten you there.

Makena: I don’t think so. That’s why the “soul reveal” you take people out for two or three days. Similarly, at the retreat, the women come out of their lives and have that experience.

Going back to your experience in those moments. You start to see the pieces of someone’s life as they’re talking to you. Is that what you’re saying? 

Then their desires and what’s really going on underneath. And, like you said, you create this open space where it really creates almost an—this is going to sound very “woo”—but like an energy field or force field or something. 

When I talk to you, and you’re asking questions in that state, I start to see more.

Of course, even if you’re not saying anything.

It’s so fascinating.

Gigi: Yes, because I’m holding that space of neutrality. You don’t get that very much in life—everyone wants something from us, has opinions, or is trying to move us in some way. It doesn’t mean they’re bad or wrong; it’s just the way the world is. Or you’ve spent your life being someone that, deep down, you know you’re not. 

To find a place to unwind and truly tap into who you are—there aren’t many spaces to do that.

Makena: It’s the biggest relief in the world. I just can’t even describe it. It’s such a relief to be able to say the things that need to be said, the things that are heavy on your heart, and let those go. 

To really see what my true desires are, what I really want, instead of logically thinking, “What’s the next step?” Then tapping into, as you said, “Who am I really?”

That wasn’t just in that turning point moment, because that was just the beginning. Having your guidance over the years, as I said, has continued helping me tap into that within myself. Learning to do this with others has been completely transformative. It really is this experience of coming home to who I truly am.

Now, I know who I am through and through. Of course, I’m sure there’s always more to learn, and I’m open to that, but I know who I am on such a deeper level. I know my flaws. I know my gifts. And I’m just comfortable in my skin, living in alignment with that.

So, tell me a little more. You said it helps you read a room. What does that mean?

Gigi: I think women have a natural ability to do this, right? Mine is just very developed, but women can do this. When I would do my workshops for women about the differences between men and women, I’d say, “If you walk into a room, into a party, what do you see?”

Most women will say, “I see the clothes, I see the people.” But the other thing I share with them is that I can see who’s talking with whom and who’s thinking about talking with whom. I can see the invisible connections between people.

Makena: You’re so good at that. You’ve taught me this to some degree, but the level to which you do it, I’m like, “Man, how did you pick up on that?”

Gigi: And again, I’m not sitting there trying to look for something. I’m neutral. I walk in, and all I do is watch and feel what comes into my consciousness—something someone says, the way someone is, or the way someone’s talking. It just comes in. It’s not like I’m trying to find it when I walk into the room.

Makena: You don’t make assumptions either, and I think that’s important. Some people might start to think, “Oh, I think this and that, and this person’s probably whatever,” but for you, the information comes in, and then you just wait. I’ve watched you wait and wait.

Why do you do that?

Gigi: Because I’m a human being, and I have to be careful not to jump to conclusions. I have to wait and see. So often, my clients will talk to me about a situation or someone in their business, and I can absolutely see that person is not going to work out. But sometimes I can’t say that right away. I have to wait. There’s a timing to things. If I say it too soon, they’ll be like, “No way,” or have resistance. 

So, I wait. When there’s a moment or an opening, maybe I can reflect back.

That’s just a timing thing. When I was younger, I used to brutally say everything, but I’ve learned a little more finesse as I’ve gotten older.

Makena: Well, tell me why that’s important though. Why did you need to finesse? 

Because if people have glimpses of this for themselves, or if they come in and learn this from you, and they go out and just start saying what they see, there’s a risk. One thing is that sometimes they might not be correct, especially as they’re learning, so they need to be careful with that. 

But the other reason is, why is it important not to do that?

Gigi: It creates resistance in the field, in your world, and you don’t want to do that. The other thing is that things need timing. Sometimes things need to evolve. Maybe that person needs to be there for a certain amount of time to finish a project or complete something. 

So, I wait. I wait for the moment where I feel like, “Okay, now is the time to say this because it’s actually hurting the business,” or it’s like a virus in the business. 

I always say, if you’ve got bad energy in there all the time or somebody gossiping or whatever, it affects the business.

So, that’s why.

Makena: Yeah, you’ve taught me this in my relationship. Sunny says to me all the time that he’s amazed by my timing. I see all kinds of things because you’ve taught me—not about him, but about the direction we’re going in or something we need to address. You’ve taught me to see in this way, where I’m helping to guide and shine a light on something. But I don’t just say everything right when I see it, and that’s huge.

If it’s not the right moment, it creates resistance or maybe more of a mess than it helps. I wait and watch, and then there’s a moment where I share. Usually, he’s open to it. Maybe he has some questions, or we dialogue about it. He’s always like, “How do you do that?” It’s because you taught me timing.

I think that’s such an important piece.

Gigi: I teach in the dynamic between men and women because that’s been my study for so many years. I’m open to all sexes and all kinds of things, but I teach women how to see in a way that supports their partner, and the same for men—to support their partners as well. Also, it’s about seeing the bigger picture. 

That’s why I love working with power couples. When you have the dynamic of two people who really learn, I help the women because they have this natural receptivity, and our underlying instinct is for collaboration. 

Men also see a lot and say a lot, but sometimes what happens is there will be judgment. I don’t say that in a judgmental way—it’s just because, remember, with men, their underlying instinct is to provide and protect.

So, I work with the women on how to start seeing the bigger picture and where to go in their relationship, life, and business. It’s about collaborating with their men to grow this strong union and build something powerful together.

Makena: It’s really cool. I’m just reflecting in this moment because, like you said, a lot of times this art of seeing between the lines is hard to do in our own lives. It’s hard to do for ourselves, but in a couple dynamic, in a relationship, you can do it for your partner and then for the relationship, which in a way is almost like a sneaky backdoor to doing it for yourself.

I’ve never really thought about that before, but somehow the fact that it’s not just about self-reflecting makes it where you can actually access this superpower in a different way. 

You can use it to see more of the direction and how to move in that direction. Something about the dynamic of two people changes things.

Gigi: Two people in the relationship, as an entity, are almost like a person, you know? Hmm. Yeah.

Makena: So interesting. Okay, so reading a room—we talked a little about that. Seeing the intentions of people. I think you touched on identifying the leaks in a business system. So, that’s often people-related, or is it always people?

Gigi: No, sometimes I will see breaks or breakdowns in the system in terms of how something’s organized or the logistical way things are handled in a business.

Makena: I want to give an example of this. I remember a company that someone we know worked for a few years ago, and there were some issues with communication between the founders that ended up being the downfall of the company. They split and went into legal disputes, or what have you, and it went on for years. This company was incredible and was doing great things in the world, but I remember seeing signs that something was going on.

I thought, “Man, if we could bring in Gigi, you could have shone a light on what was happening in the dynamics and guided them so they didn’t have to end up with that outcome—the business falling apart.” 

I think that’s one of the examples of what you’re describing in terms of leaks in the system or seeing a few steps ahead. Often, there are things that start out small, and if they continue, they become huge.

Gigi: Yeah, and then people don’t know how to navigate conflict. As you know, that’s another really strong area for me—the dynamic of communication and how to create harmony in systems. It’s one of my passions.

Often, misunderstandings between people—especially in a company—occur with the owners or people who are high up in the business, and they don’t have a way to navigate and work through things in a space of neutrality.

Makena: Your clients, who have worked with you for 10, 12 years or more, would probably say one of the things they value the most is that you come into their lives and businesses, and you see for them in this way. 

You come in, they talk, they share, and you scan with your spidey senses: What’s going on? What are the pieces? Who are the players?

And then, you share these little bits at the right time. I’m speaking from my own experience and from watching you do this with others. 

It creates something beyond what they might have had on their own. It leads to exponential growth, or it keeps things that start out small from becoming huge breakdowns later on because they get handled early.

Gigi: It’s simple things. The other thing is, because of my years of experience working with people, they normally feel safe with me. If they don’t, I usually wonder about that, but eventually, they get there—they feel safe with me, and they open up. 

A lot of clients bring me in to talk to their staff and do one-on-ones.

I did that at JPMorgan Chase, but there was one particular situation in the last few years with a legal firm, a client of mine. I talked to all of her staff—about 14 women—and had individual calls with each one. 

They had a new software system, but two of the women just would not use it. This had been going on for a couple of years, and it was really slowing things down because the system would have sped up their work and allowed them to make money much faster.

Through my conversations with them, I said a couple of things, and two weeks later, the owner called me and asked, “What did you do?” because they said they were going to learn the whole system. The man who was also in the business with her was like, “Who is this person? How did she get them to do this? They wouldn’t do it before.”

So again, I just say simple things, and people understand. I think they also understand that I mean business.

Makena: Yeah, and it plants a seed. You say these things, and I’ve had those experiences so many times—just in passing, in a conversation, you drop some little thing in, and then I go and think about it. People do this. I think all of our clients do this. They think about it, and they self-reflect in a different way. I start to ask myself, “Why am I doing it this way?” or “What is the impact of that?” or “Is this really getting me what I want?”

That’s where I start to make some of these changes. So, yeah, I have examples. I gave one the other day. This goes back to a relationship example from a few years ago—maybe three years ago.

My husband really wanted to do this program. It was a two-year program about somatics and attachment repair, and some energetic work. A lot of our friends were doing it, some had done it before, and they were doing it again. It involved seven retreats over two years—seven four-day retreats, where you would fly out and learn in person.

I was a little curious about it, but I had a lot of other things I was learning and doing at the time. I thought, “I don’t know if I want to invest that kind of time and money in this particular program. There are other things I’m really excited about right now.” I didn’t want to do it just to go along with what everybody else was doing. I’m a little—maybe because I was homeschooled—I don’t want to just do what the whole crowd is doing.

So, I was going back and forth, unsure. I remember it was the day before the application was due, or maybe the night the application was due, and you said to me, “Makena, you need to do this program.” I gave you all my reasons, but you said, “If you don’t do this, your paths are going to diverge—not that you’ll part, but something important will be missed if you’re not there.”

So, I did it. I went for it. I trusted your guidance, invested the time, the money, the energy, and flew out to all the retreats. First of all, it had a great impact on my life. But secondly, it was huge in terms of my relationship. Not only did we spend quality time together learning, but we also developed a shared language around all of this. He would have gone and learned all this stuff, and I wouldn’t have. He would have felt like I didn’t understand, and it would have created a whole different dynamic.

Also, because a lot of our friends from San Diego were in this program—and we were living in Austin at the time—we developed deeper relationships with them again and met new people who are now in our community. That really guided us back to San Diego. We’re so happy to be back here now. If I hadn’t done that program, I would have had resistance to moving back. I would have felt left out of something, or maybe judged for not understanding some things.

There are so many ways I can see that if I hadn’t done it, it would have been a lot more challenging. But it facilitated something really beautiful, deepening our relationship and stepping into the next chapter together. That’s just one example, but there are so many over the years—big and small, personal and business-related.

I wanted to describe this a little because this isn’t just something that happens when people come in and work with us. We talked about the mentorship in the last episode, but if someone didn’t listen to it, you’ve decided to do this work for three more years, right?

Right. So, Gigi is going to retire soon, and in that, you were looking at what you wanted these next three years to be about. Do you want to touch on that again?

Gigi: Yeah, and I saw that I really wanted to mentor. I want to mentor people in two ways. I want to mentor in our mastermind, so we shifted that to focus on mentorship. Business coaching is also included, but I also want women to really learn what I know and take them through the process, even things like what we’re talking about here.

The other thing is to have a big impact on leaders—especially men who are powerful leaders and need vision. They need someone in their life who can be a sounding board.

Makena: Absolutely. So, if you’re listening to this or you listened to the last episode and feel a sense of curiosity, really think about who might be looking for this kind of guidance or mentorship. Someone who wants to grow and accelerate—not necessarily in the way I did, but in their own way. I’ve had this huge transformation over the last six years, and I often think, “Who else wants this? Who else needs this?”

I can’t even begin to describe my gratitude and the change in me. There were so many points where I could have gone down a different path, and I don’t know where I’d be today. But instead, I feel so happy and fulfilled. My success has grown exponentially—in my relationships, my health, and in so many other areas.

If you’re curious about this, definitely reach out to us about the mentorship. It’s about growing in your own business, career, visions, and dreams. But it’s also about learning things like the art of seeing between the lines. Imagine having this superpower. You’ve taught me this over the years, and I use it in my coaching, my relationships, and my community. I see so many things I never saw before, and it’s such a cool experience.

In any conversation, it’s like you said—seeing the chess pieces. I don’t see it quite like you do, but it’s as if there’s another field of vision on top of this one. Little things pop up—like more information. It’s almost like unlocking another sense. 

It’s never about manipulation; it’s about asking deeper questions, building better connections, and supporting people in my life. It absolutely helps me support our clients at a deeper level.

If this is something you’re curious about, we’re going to dive deeply into it in the mentorship program. One of the reasons I wanted to share this is because it’s the superpower you never knew you needed or wanted.

Thank you for sharing more about this. It’s such a fun topic for me, and I want us to plant the seeds of many amazing superheroes out there—people who develop this skill and can draw upon it for their own lives and for the people who matter to them.

Gigi: So, absolutely. Thank you so much. To the listener, I hope you enjoyed this and that it wasn’t too out there for you.

Makena: Oh, we didn’t mention how you can get in touch with us! If you’re curious at all about the mentorship, Soul Reveals, or anything else, just reach out at support@wayofthemuse.com, or you can always go to our website, www.wayofthemuse.com, and read more.

The Soul Reveals, Gigi, will be on your new website, which is launching soon—www.gigisage.com. So if you’re curious about that one-on-one, deep-dive, turning point kind of experience, that’s where you can learn more.

All right, everyone, we’ll see you in the next episode. Bye-bye!