Gigi: Hello, everyone. Hello, Makena.

Makena: Hi, Gigi.

Gigi: We’re both traveling here, right? So our backgrounds are crazy.

Makena: Crazy backgrounds, poor lighting, we forgot our microphones. Hopefully, the quality is up to par, but the content will be great. Thank you for being here.

Makena: Yeah.

Gigi: First of all, happy holidays, everyone. We’re getting close here, right?

Makena: Definitely, by the time this comes out, it’ll be that time. Great to be here with you all, as usual. We have a holiday-themed episode for you today, which is around turning holiday stress into holiday magic. 

A lot of the stress we were talking about at this time of year has to do with being around family or loved ones, and there are just things that come up—old patterns, ways of communicating, maybe arguments or frustrations. 

There’s all the good, but there’s also stress, or you’re just busy and running around. We really want to talk about, if you are home for the holidays or have family over, how do you navigate some of that in a different way and take a new approach this year that can make your holidays so much smoother and more joyful?

Gigi: Yeah. I’d love to start with something that I do in life, and I was trying to teach this to my little granddaughter. 

I think it’s a great approach for the holidays: always leave things better than you found them. When I go into people’s environments, or family situations, I’m always looking to see how I can add to what’s already going on or how I can be in service. 

So much of the time, people go in—my clients tell me this a lot—and they’re upset about the way a mother or brother or sister is, and they focus on how that person is instead of just accepting that’s how they are. They’re probably not going to change, since they haven’t already. Really getting in there and being in service to whatever’s going on is important.

Makena: This is an easy one to say and a really challenging one in practice. I see this with clients and others I know. The default, like you’re saying, is to go to frustration: “They’re doing this,” and we get irritated. But the question there is, are they going to change? 

Probably not, if they haven’t already—not this holiday. So what is the frustration really doing for you? It’s just making you frustrated. Is it helping, or having the result you want of a more relaxed holiday, or is it just winding you up?

Again, easy to say and hard to do, but I think it’s a good way to look at it. Somewhere in our minds, we think, “If I get frustrated, or if I show them a different way, they’ll do it differently,” or something like that. So there’s this way of letting go and first accepting—acceptance is the first step. 

Acceptance doesn’t mean you agree or condone their behavior; it just means, okay, I’m probably not going to change them, at least not this holiday, so I may as well relax around it a little. Then from there, I think the step further, Gigi, that you’re sharing is, “How can I even be in service in some way?” Can you describe that a little? I don’t think people always know what that means.

Gigi: Well, it depends. It’s in different situations. When I go into somebody’s environment, of course, we go in thinking, “Oh my gosh, I would do this or that differently.” 

If I notice myself going down that route and thinking I’m right, then it becomes me trying to get them to change. Instead, I focus on how they approach things and ask, “What can I do to help out here?” Is that helping in the kitchen or cleaning up after them, or visiting with a friend who’s there? How do I add to the environment and what’s going on, instead of going up against what’s going on?

Makena: That’s a really beautiful way to put it. We’re with Sunny’s family right now in Canada, and one thing we’re doing is family dinners together every night, which they don’t normally do. We’re cooking, we bought all the groceries yesterday, we’ve planned out meals for the week. 

That’s one of the ways we contribute when we come in; it brings the whole family together and gives us quality time, plus it’s a family-friendly activity since we have a little baby. That could be another example. Another thing I often do with his family is bring up conversation topics. He does as well. 

Bringing interesting questions, using conversation card decks—which I know you’re a huge fan of—or even going on ChatGPT to come up with interesting questions. That can be fun and help everyone go deeper, instead of staying in our habitual ways of talking. It adds another layer of depth and quality. Those are a couple other ideas for being of service.

Gigi: We just had that at Thanksgiving at my oldest daughter’s. 

At Thanksgiving, you know me—I always ask people to get into deeper conversation. We had maybe fourteen people this year, and I said, “Listen, it’s something I do—would you all be open to it?” Everyone agreed. 

So I said, “Turn to the person on your left and tell them something you’re grateful for.” Some people didn’t know each other well, but after being together for the day, you have something to share. Some were couples. Immediately, the first woman next to me started bawling and said, “Oh my God, did you have to do this?” 

But it was a sweet moment between her and her partner. A couple other people got emotional, but it was special. At one point, a parent said something to their child, but it was really about the parent. I said, “No, no, really focus on something about your child.” It took a moment, but they did. Teaching people how to do that is powerful. 

It changed the dynamic for a few minutes, of course, then we went back to what we were doing. Those subtle things are how I feel I add wherever I go. 

Like you said, Makena, more connection—people don’t get enough of that. We talk about superficial things so often or things we disagree on, but rarely do we really share something from the heart with people we love and appreciate. Those are meaningful moments, and you don’t get them often in life.

Makena: Absolutely. Otherwise, it’s so easy for the holidays to just pass by quickly. We go in, we interact, we eat, we do whatever, and it’s over. 

Maybe it was smooth or maybe it was stressful, but how much of that quality, that depth, that meaning—which are the moments you’ll look back on—did we have? You mentioned a powerful point. It can sound a little morbid, but sometimes a parent passes on and people think, “I wish I would have…” What do you observe around that with people?

Gigi: I see this often. I coach people, and many times for years they’re frustrated by their parent, their mother or father. I’ve helped people have more depth through communication skills and such, but still, there’s a constant irritation that we all have, right?

Gigi: Then the parent passes, and they’re like, “I wish I’d been more grateful for the moments.” In the holiday season, yes, your mom might be cranky or your dad might be however he is, but also be grateful they’re alive, well, and with you. 

Practicing gratitude is more than just saying, “I’m grateful for my family.” The depth is in being truly grateful your parent is alive, they still get to be with your kids, your kids get to know them, which is powerful; or being with a sister you rarely see, even if your lives are different. Having a few moments of connection like that will mean so much throughout your life.

Makena: It’s like the idea of hopping forward and imagining you’re 80 or 90, looking back at this moment in your life. How would you reflect on it? For me, if I’m having sleep-deprived nights or whatever, I try to pop out of my immediate experience and imagine looking back—thinking, “Oh my gosh, this is such a special time to have a little baby and to be with Sunny’s family for the holidays.” 

Whatever your version is, if this person wasn’t here anymore, how would you look back on this time and want to have spent it with them? It brings you back to what ways you can create moments of depth or meaning or fun. 

It could be having a dance party in the kitchen, for example—just looking for the kind of memories you want to make. It sounds cliché, but thinking about it that way gives you a different lens.

Gigi: I love that, it’s so true. 

Another distinction to make is that we go in with an idea of how we want things to go, and then the person says no. It’s like with kids—you suggest something and they say no.

Gigi: Instead of going in with an agenda, ask the other person what they’d like to do, and join them. That begins to build the relationship, and people are much more open—same with children—to doing something with you if you first do what they want to do. 

People get frustrated because they think, “I went in and was trying to be this way and they wouldn’t do it.” You can’t do that—it’s like trying to change someone. Remember, we can’t change anyone; we can only change ourselves and the way we approach things.

Makena: There’s a lot of nuance to this, and I’m glad you’re bringing it up. It’s almost paradoxical, but basically what you’re talking about is going in with receptivity, which is one of your coaching communication skills. Receptivity, in this context and in general, is acceptance first—going with their energy first. Then maybe you can bring in your own ideas. 

But before you share what you want to do, ask if there’s anything they’d like to do, and open it up that way so it’s not like you’re directing them. On the other side, it can feel like, “What are they doing? Are they trying to make me do something?” 

So people get defensive. But if you are genuinely curious, sometimes their defenses drop, and there’s an opening for you to share something, too.

Gigi: Yes. Or you can go into something they’re already doing and support them—join in and say, “Can I help? Can I be part of this?”

Makena: That’s a great idea. It’s not necessarily always about coming up with something yourself. If they’re doing a lot of cooking, support with that, talk as you go, make moments out of what’s already there.

Gigi: We did that last year at Christmas, remember when we were all together? There were a couple of things we did, like painting ornaments—it wasn’t required, we just put them out, and the kids and adults joined in. The adults ended up spending hours doing it.

Makena: Those ornaments! We got them for a Christmas party last year, for the kids to decorate. I brought them home for the holidays because there were so many extra—they were wooden, mandala-shaped ornaments, and we got paint pens for kids and adults. 

At our Christmas party, the adults did it for hours—it was meditative—while the kids lost interest quickly. Same thing happened at the family Christmas.

Gigi: Yes, and when Brianna brought home canvases and we painted at a big table, whoever wanted to join did, some stayed forever, some got bored and left. Those kinds of things—you offer them, but don’t make it mandatory. It’s collaborative, everyone has fun. 

I’m at Tiffany’s right now, we just decorated the tree, and we had eight of those mandala ornaments.

Makena: That’s so fun. They’re living on into this year.

Makena: I think the other thing you wanted to talk about was self-care. We’ve discussed a lot about the interpersonal side and made it more about you going to someone else’s home, but it applies if people are coming to you—same communication skills and approaches. 

What about caring for yourself in the midst of all that? It can be a lot, being with family or loved ones, and can feel stressful.

Gigi: I think it’s important to check in with your energy and ask what you need. For me, being here for two weeks with the grandkids—I kept them for a week by myself while my daughter was in Japan—it was important to take time alone, in my room, reading and spending time with myself. Maybe I got up a little later, didn’t engage immediately, so I could build my energy back up and feel strong again. You don’t have to be involved every minute. 

Probably you want to be part of things, but choose what to participate in, and when. It’s really important—if you walk every day and love to walk, keep doing that and ask if others want to go. That’s a great way to talk and connect. Some people might, some might not. See what things you want to do and invite others along—maybe to get a coffee or something. Yes, those kinds of things.

Makena: We did that yesterday—we’d been together for several days with Sunny’s family, and we wanted some time with just us, because we’re all piled into a car, five of us, with a car seat—it’s a lot. We decided, “We’re going to the grocery store, just us three,” and it was so nice. We need that time that’s just us as well as time with family, so taking those breaks is important. I think those are the main things. Anything else?

Gigi: No, I think those are the main things. 

To elaborate more on leaving things better than I found them, I always think, when I go into any environment or even if people come to me, “How do I leave the mood better? How do I leave the connection better? How do I leave the environment better?” How do I contribute in such a way that I added value wherever I was? It doesn’t have to be a lot of work. It doesn’t mean cleaning up everything—sometimes it can be tiny little things. That, and gratitude—being really grateful, even when people rub you the wrong way.

Gigi: And what was the other one you mentioned? Acceptance, right?

Makena: Yes, and then asking—instead of just telling them what you want to do, start by seeing what they’re interested in or joining in their activities. Those are the main things. And then just taking care of yourself, like you said, getting what you need. 

When you look through the lens of gratitude and of how to add value or be in service, it takes your attention off yourself and off of the problems. It shifts your attention to a different, more useful place that can lead to more moments of meaning, more ease, more fun. It won’t be all the time—you may still have ups and downs, or little bickering—but resetting to that perspective is powerful. It’s a great reminder this holiday season.

Gigi: Yeah.

Makena: Thank you. Happy holidays.

Gigi: Thank you, everyone, for listening and being part of our journey here. We so, so appreciate it. Please share—what is it people aren’t liking, what are they doing?

Makena: Rate the podcast! Give us a five-star rating, review if that’s available on the platform you listen on, share it with friends, family, anyone who would get value from it. It really supports us. We’ve been doing this for well over a year and a half now.

Gigi: I think we started in May.

Makena: We started in May 2024 and it’s now December 2025. Wow.

Gigi: I had no idea. Wow. Should we tell the exciting news about what’s coming up?

Makena: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. The book is almost done.

Makena: You’re in the final, final edits. The cover was just designed. We’re getting all the pieces pulled together for it to come out in early 2026. It’s called “The Wisdom that Raised Me: A Daughter’s Journey into Wholeness, Wisdom and Womanhood.” 

It’s a memoir-style book—stories from my life about the kind of lessons Gigi taught me; different ways she intervened and supported me to become the woman I was meant to be, to find love, to heal things, to step into work I love. It’s really for anyone—especially women—who want to create an even more beautiful, dream life, but it’s a story-based, memoir approach rather than a how-to. Book.

Gigi: Super excited.

Makena: Can’t wait to share it with you. We’ll keep you posted when we have an official release date. Thanks again for listening. Happy holidays.

Gigi: Happy holidays.

Makena: Bye bye.

Makena: Hi, everyone.

Gigi: Hello, everyone. I feel like I haven’t been on here in ages.

Makena: Yeah, it’s been a while now that we’re doing every other week instead of every week.

Gigi: It stretches out.

Makena: Yeah. Today we have a topic for you that is very relevant for me in general and also right now with being a new mom. So, yeah, it came up and we thought we would, instead of Gigi just teaching me what to do privately, we would put it on the air. So that’ll be fun. And the topic is control. 

So first of all, what do we mean by control? I think, Gigi, this is something we see a lot, not just with me, but with women that we work with. And I think successful, high-powered women often, what makes them successful can also kind of, on the other side, become too controlling or too structured. Yeah, I think controlling is probably the word because they’re not necessarily always structured people, right?

Gigi: Yeah, yeah. Like you said, it’s something you use to get ahead and is needed. Even though some people aren’t that structured, they have to be maybe in their business, in their work. So it becomes this—you spend all day acting like that, and then when you leave and go home, it’s really hard to turn off. 

Especially if you’ve seen yourself be effective and it gets results, but often we don’t see those results in our home life. It’s a very, very different thing. People aren’t going to respond the same way they do in a business situation. But that’s not just what this is about. We’re talking about control all over the place, right?

Makena: Yeah. For me, even though I’m focused on motherhood right now, I am finding it coming up very strongly. We were talking about that before we got on today, that I think something about the lack of sleep and just being a little less regulated because there’s so much more going on—something about that state makes me want to control even more, to hold it all together. I’m just finding that there’s limits to that. 

I can’t control everything, nor do I really want to, but it’s a habit or a pattern. Probably learned from earlier stages when I was super career and business-focused and didn’t have a family. But it’s carried over here. I think we see it in all kinds of women.

Gigi: Yeah, and the issue with it is it doesn’t allow you to ever really relax because you’re always kind of what we call business micromanaging instead of letting things flow. We could go a lot of different directions, because in business I see this too. Even if women are doing it, it’s made them effective; in the long run, it doesn’t work. In the long, long run.

Makena: Yeah.

Gigi: People don’t like to be controlled.

Makena: Yeah. And if you’re listening to this, you might not identify with the word “control,” but you might identify with perfectionism or trying to hold it all together. Like you said, Gigi, before we got on, not wanting to drop any balls, right? 

Can you talk a little bit about how this starts there—which seems innocent enough—but then it extends out to almost controlling other people?

Gigi: Again, you want things to be perfect, or you want to have everything working. If we do certain things and it’s effective and gets results, then we’re going to think, “Okay, I’ll use this everywhere.” So it becomes a habit, which feels like it’s holding everything together or making sure the balls aren’t dropping. But the truth is, it starts to create resistance in you, but also in your partnerships—or in business, the same thing with people. They start resisting, and maybe they resist quietly, but in that, there’s also a pushback that starts to happen. Then, what happens is funny, you get even more perfectionistic, right? 

This is funny to bring up right now because I’ve been watching my grandkids for the last week, which has been a blessing and fun and challenging. I noticed that when I would get tired and my nervous system was dysregulated, then I would want to stop this, stop that—I would start being overly controlling, trying to put order in because I wasn’t regulated. It wasn’t just that they weren’t regulated; I wasn’t regulated. So I had to step back and go, “Okay, how do I set myself up, something where I feel regulated each day as well?”

Makena: Yeah. You were telling me about your coffee ritual. Can you share?

Gigi: Yeah, everybody knows my little coffee. I was here—they have this gorgeous view of the Golden Gate Bridge and San Francisco and the water and everything. There’s nothing like sitting in front of that window. That’s why I moved the furniture. I moved the sofa to be in front of the window because I love sitting in the morning, having my cappuccino, and just staring out a window or whatever. I put it there, and then every morning for the last three mornings, I would get up and that’s what I would do. I would sit there and just look out the window—the view is beautiful. 

Then the kids would do it with me. We watched the sunset one day, so it became this spot for me that I carved out, and then they had to come into my energy instead of me going out to them all the time, which really worked.

Makena: It’s so interesting because so many of these things are lessons that I really learned in business and you really taught me over the years. I feel like I learned them, and I integrated them, and I shifted the way that I approached my life and my work. Now, being a mom, I’m having to relearn them over again. It’s so interesting. What comes up in me when you share these things is like, “Oh, well, there’s not enough time to get everything done,” or, “If I don’t hold it all together, it’s all going to fall.” Those old thought processes that I know aren’t true because I’ve experienced the alternative, right? 

I’ve had those thoughts before when I was just focused on career and partnership, and then I really shifted things. You guided me, you mentored me, and I started to approach things differently. It’s just interesting to self-reflect and go, “Okay, all those same thoughts are coming up now, and I feel even more justified in them because I have a child.” 

But I know on some level it’s not true. It’s an energy you get into, a mode that you get into. Like you’re saying, one thing is slowing down internally almost. It’s taking those little moments and carving them out. I’m like, “Oh my gosh, sitting with my cup of coffee,” right? 

But I’m constantly multitasking—I’m drinking my cup of coffee while doing something, while nursing Sienna, while… Instead, to just take those moments like you’re saying, even if it’s just five minutes, to slow down or actually sit down and eat my food, instead of standing by the kitchen counter and eating.

Gigi: So much of my work has been around ritual and rhythm. Ritual and rhythm, right? Those little rituals go out the window, and then again, you’re at a new phase in life, and you think, “Oh, those aren’t so important,” but they’re so, so important. You said that when you’re feeding Sienna, you’re doing all kinds of things, but the truth is, if you sat there and just fed Sienna for 15 or 20 minutes and didn’t do anything else, didn’t look at your phone, you would calm down completely. 

She would calm down, she would feel your energy, and that presence and attentiveness would really increase your energy and your ability to do what you need to do during the day.

Makena: Which I’ve experienced before. Again, I’ve learned this through experience, so I can tell you guys listening who don’t believe this, that it is true. It’s hard when you’re in the middle of it; you’re like, “Yeah, that doesn’t make any sense.” Or it might make sense, but you’re just like, “I don’t know, there’s so much to do.” 

But you were telling a story, Gigi, about the laundry, which is great—also an applicable one to where I am right now. Do you want to share about that?

Gigi: Yeah, it’s so funny. Here, same thing. These kids are nine and five, so a lot of stuff, a lot of school, a lot of things going on. There’s laundry every day, right? So much laundry. I kept on thinking I should do laundry, and then I thought, “Wait a minute, I’m not going to do laundry. I’ll wait until Saturday.” Then I’ll do laundry, get it started. I did that—it was so simple, there was no pressure. That was a simple little system, where I see a lot of times moms are trying to keep up with laundry all week. 

The truth is, it was super easy to do the laundry on Saturday. I could throw it in, and we could go out, we went to the park, did all kinds of things, come back. It worked within my schedule because we didn’t have the tight school schedule. Just something like that, that’s going more with the flow of the energy of what’s happening instead of, in my mind, what I think should be happening.

Makena: Yeah, I tried to do something similar, and then I’ve kind of forgotten about it. I need to do laundry a lot more than once a week at this point—just with a small baby, you go through a lot of stuff. But I had started at one point to do kind of like every other day. So every other day, instead of just trying to keep it up constantly, I would put a load in, and hang it up, or whatever that was. 

Or sometimes I could stretch it to three days, right. Even just that little bit, like you’re saying, instead of running around constantly doing, doing, doing, treating a simple… Like you said, rituals are more like the coffee, and rhythm is what’s that rhythm of the way you’re approaching your days, right?

Gigi: Yeah, and to get yourself calmed down—for me, this is what I know because this is what I do in my work—if I sit with myself and I get connected to myself and I have a little bit of time for that, then when I work with people, I’m present, I’m there, and I go into it with my energy, instead of taking on their energy. I was here with the kids and I thought, “Why don’t I do that with the kids,” because that’s the way I raised my kids too. When I did that, then they came into my energy. 

Then it wasn’t this trying to run around and make sure everything was handled for them. Now, of course, we did a lot of that still, but little tweaks like that made a big, big difference. I think the other piece is the acceptance of learning that you’re navigating a next stage. Again, your life has an added complexity to it now because you have another person in your life. Right. So one of the biggest things that I think, especially because we work with a lot of women, is to learn to tap into the flow of the way things want and let go of wanting to hold everything together all the time. We talked about, when you wake up at night—you want to share that?

Makena: Yeah. I often wake up super early with the baby. Sometimes I wake up at six-something, which is our normal time, but sometimes I’m up nursing Sienna at 4:30 and then I can’t go back to sleep, and I start running around the house doing everything that needs to be done. How much time can I maximize to get things done before she wakes up for the day, or what have you. So tell me what you would tell me about that.

Gigi: Yeah, we talked about spending that quality time first sitting with Sienna. The other thing is to really go with the flow because a lot of times when people wake up like that, they’re frustrated, or there’s resistance, or they try to go back to sleep. I learned a long time ago that when I wake up like that, not to resist—maybe get up, read a nice book. You could even do that while you’re feeding Sienna at some points. So you start to go with what’s happening, instead of being frustrated and trying to fit things in, like you said, wanting to get up and get all these things done first.

Makena: Yeah, I really have learned the one from you over the years of not resisting. The frustration doesn’t happen for me—it probably does for some people listening, like you wake up in the middle of the night and you’re just stressed that you can’t go back to sleep. Now I pretty much shut that one down. I’m like, all right, I just go with it. I think where I get to continue to refine is, like you said, not just jumping into a million different things, like taking a few minutes to relax and not to scroll on my phone or something. Really drink my coffee, read a book, or listen to some music in the bath, or whatever it is if she’s not awake yet. Yeah, definitely.

Gigi: And then really to prioritize what’s important, because you can’t handle all the things you were handling before.

Makena: Yeah. I had a moment when I was visiting you just last week or the week before, where the way that I’ve operated up to now, I can’t really operate anymore because there’s just too many channels at once. We were, I think, packing to go home, so I’m navigating feeding Sienna, pumping, trying to get everything packed for our trip, getting us to the airport, just all the different pieces. In the past, I could do that sequentially in my brain: “Here’s all the things that need to happen, this is going to happen, and then that, then that.” I had this moment where, between the loss of sleep and the complexity of how much is going on, I cannot hold all of this in my brain. 

I just had to let it go and be like, “Okay, I just get to do one thing and then do the next thing and then do the next thing,” and not worry about micromanaging every moment. I’ve done that in the past because I’m worried I’m not going to get things done in time or something’s going to fall through the cracks. But it was just like, okay, there’s literally no way. It was actually the moment that sparked the idea for this episode, where I was just like, oh, it was an interesting aha—like, I can’t hold it all together. It’s just not possible at this stage.

Gigi: Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you start to let go and go with the flow, things work differently. It’s almost that thing we talk about all the time with allowing, and just allowing things to happen. Things are going to fall through the cracks, and you have to be okay with that. If there are things that are important, need to be prioritized, then that’s what you have to really make your list about; how do those get handled, and how do you and your partner support each other in that? It’s also great to know, what do you love to manage and maybe what does he love to manage, and how can you work together in a teamwork, doing what you want to do? That way it doesn’t become about you managing him as well.

Makena: That’s something we were talking about with you when we were there. I think you encouraged me to do this—I wrote down everything I manage and everything he manages. Because we’ve done this to some degree before in the household with who takes on what areas, but I just took another look at it. Are there things that I am managing that I can’t or don’t want to? Do we need to have another conversation about this to shift priorities? It was interesting. 

What I realized was that for me right now, it wasn’t actually about managing less currently; there weren’t other things that I was like, “Oh, I really need him to take this on.” I realized that I hadn’t been taking any time to myself, just to myself. I was either watching Sienna on my own, or in family time or time with Sunny, and we were watching her together. That was interesting to see, so we decided one night a week that he would put her to bed and do everything, and I would fully take that evening off, and then we’ll do the same for him as well.

Gigi: Right.

Makena: So he has a full evening. It was just interesting to write it all out and go, there isn’t actually anything I feel super called to hand off at this moment. The other thing we did was decide that weekly we would touch base and talk about what’s working, what’s not working in that regard, and is there anything that needs to shift? Especially for the moms listening, things are changing a lot when you have young babies. That’s a good practice we’re putting into place. In general, that tip of each person, if you’re in a partnership, having certain things you own has been huge for us over the years. 

Sunny handles the cars, almost anything with the cars. I book our travel. We have certain areas that we both get to own.

Gigi: Yeah, which is great because there’s so much frustration that happens. Like, “I just wish he would book our travel,” or “I wish…” People don’t sit down and just talk about these things. When you talk about them, it just clears out so much, because so much of the breakdowns are emotional breakdowns, as you can see.

Makena: Yeah, absolutely. That was huge, too. You did a VIP day with us when we were visiting you. Gigi gave us all, for Christmas—all of her kids—VIP coaching days with her last year. Sunny and I finally used ours, and that was huge, because so much… That’s the other thing I realized this week when I came home, I felt so much more spaciousness, but nothing had changed in terms of what I was doing. 

I realized so much of it was the emotional buildup, things we weren’t on the same page about, just things that had been building up. When we cleared that out, you supported us to do that in our coaching day, things felt very different. I felt so much lighter, I didn’t feel so stressed. So much of it, like you’re saying, is the emotional side as well.

Gigi: Yeah, like you said, we got through what would have taken hundreds of hours between the two of you.

Makena: Yeah. What we did in four hours—it was insane because we had had so many conversations and had been trying to navigate some of this stuff for months about being new parents and all the different pieces. We were able to clear so much out. Of course, we’re still implementing, and it will take us a while to implement everything that you shared or helped us with, but, yeah, it was hugely powerful. Thank you again for that.

Gigi: You’re welcome.

Makena: The emotional side is one part sometimes of the control or perfectionism, the trying to hold it all together. The other one, like you said before, is just if you’re tired or dysregulated. Often, we overreact by trying to put order to our space or everything we need to do.

Gigi: Yeah.

Makena: It can come out as control or perfectionism.

Gigi: The other one I had mentioned to you, which is sometimes I see perfectionism or control happens because people aren’t good at things, so they overcompensate for them. I remember a client talking—she’s doing spreadsheets and all these different things, and I think it’s not really her wheelhouse. 

She becomes overly controlling about that because for her, it’s difficult. I do that sometimes; I see that if it’s an area that I don’t understand and I’m trying to hold it all together. That’s another one, where if you can—in your business, let’s say—find people who are good at those things that you are not good at and turn them over to them, just like you’re doing in your home. Look at those areas of where someone excels and really give them those opportunities to excel in that area and take that off your plate.

Makena: It’s interesting. As you were talking, I was just thinking about how it’s a good reminder for me. Although I am very organized and structured—and that’s a skill set I’ve developed—I often think and had forgotten that a lot of that developed out of not really being that way. When I was young, naturally I was maybe even the opposite, a little messy and just all over the place with some things, and I developed this, almost overcompensated. 

I went the other way and thought I need to learn to hold all these things together and structure. It’s an interesting reminder for me. Some of this isn’t truly, naturally how I am. I’ll give the example of my sister, Brianna, who is an amazing organizer. 

For her, we talk about aliveness: for her, it’s so natural and fun and it brings her life. I’m always like, wow, because for me, it’s not actually like that. 

In our World Changer Quiz—if you don’t know, we have a free quiz called the World Changer Quiz at worldchangerquiz.com—we talk about visionaries, which you are, and connectors, which I am, and arrangers, which I’d say Brianna probably is. An arranger is more the systems and structures person. You and I both have learned a lot of arranger skills, but you’re more the visionary, and I’m more the people person and the connector. 

Often, I relate to myself as an arranger, and I’m just remembering—that’s not the distinction, what brings you alive. That’s not what brings me alive. It’s great for me to reconnect to that. I can do some arranging, I don’t mind that, but it’s not my highest aliveness. If I try to do too much of it, I put myself into this energy that’s just not the best for me. 

Sunny had a beautiful vision, just to maybe start to close on this. I asked him the other day about his vision for something, and he painted this whole picture of coming home, and I’m walking down the stairs holding our daughter, and I’m super relaxed, in my energy, flowing. He painted this whole picture, and I thought, oh my god, that’s what he really wants.

I don’t remember how it all came up—we were maybe talking about all the things around the house because he’s always like, “Just let it be a little messy,” and I’m like, “Well, I don’t think you’d actually want that,” right? Then I realized, it’s not about whether the place is messy or not or everything’s done or not; what he wants more than anything is for me to be relaxed, for me to be in my energy. I’m always orienting to “everything needs to look good,” or be “done,” I don’t know how to describe it.

Gigi: I know you. You always are trying to get to the end of your list.

Makena: Yeah, I’m always trying to get to the end.

Gigi: The list never ends.

Makena: I get to the end of it all the time for, like, an hour or so…

Gigi: Then there’s another list. You should just relax around that one.

Makena: Oh my gosh, yes. But that vision he shared is so true in partnerships. A lot of times—again, this is not always true that it’s the woman and the man; sometimes the roles are reversed—but a lot of times we see that the woman gets into this kind of energy of perfectionism or trying to hold it all together or whatever that might be. Ultimately, our partners want us to be happy, relaxed, in flow. They want quality time; our kids too, for people who have kids that are a little older.

Gigi: It’s a tough one because women have gone into business, and business brings a certain kind of energy. But you can balance that out too. You’re right on—your partner wants you to be happy and fulfilled and enjoying yourself. You can still be doing business, but from a place of relaxation, which is the orientation. It’s a shift in the orientation, and it is a design thing.

Makena: Tell me what you mean by that.

Gigi: Well, it’s just like when you guys were young, the design we put into place is what made things work; otherwise, they wouldn’t have worked. Two little kids, like I’ve been watching my grandchildren, two parents working, and no additional support—once in a while they have a nanny. Just that, to me, there’s a design breakdown to be able to manage all that and manage it so it really works for everybody.

Makena: Yeah. 

So for people who are working, what’s the distinction there for them to design it so that they can…

Gigi: Yeah, and that women want to let go and enjoy and feel relaxed and feel more feminine. Of course they do. Some women would say no, or “I feel very feminine,” but in their energy, they’re not feminine. There’s too much structure to it.

Makena: Yeah, I would say it’s like the secret longing of so many women—to feel, even if you don’t call it feminine, to feel more relaxed, more in flow, like they can let go. It feels like, and again I’m speaking from the inside of it even though I’ve learned this lesson before, it feels like it’s not possible when you’re in it. It feels like there’s no way or if you do that, everything’s going to fall apart or something’s going to… I don’t know what it is, right? But the truth is, again, that shift in orientation—if you start from that place, everything else flows easier.

Gigi: Start from what place?

Makena: From that place of being centered in yourself, more relaxed.

Gigi: And then what do you want? Your partner wants that, but what do you want? If we’re super clear about that, there’s absolutely a way to co-create that with your partner in that feeling. You’ve seen me do that with you several times, where you think, “You can’t do this, it’s too much pressure,” and then I say, “Yes, you can, it’s in your mind.”

Makena: Remind me what you mean by that.

Gigi: Even when you were feeling so much pressure and I told you to take three weeks off, you were like, “No, no,” anxiety. I said, “Three weeks, absolutely, you can take three weeks off. You’re going to have to organize a few things and do a few things, maybe you have to take a couple of calls, but mostly you’ll take that time off.” There is a way, but again, we’re too controlling in ourselves to see that life wants us to flow. There is a flow to life, and that’s when you start to design. Do you design that flow around what you want, what your relationship wants, what your partnership wants, instead of compartmentalizing? 

Because this is the thing that we get into from being in business—it has to be structured: I go home, I do this. There is an energy flow that can happen through your life that will get you what you want. It doesn’t mean you won’t be pressured sometimes, doesn’t mean things won’t be working, but you’ll be in the right orientation to where you will still gain energy from it.

Makena: Yeah. The image that comes to me—I can’t remember where I heard this originally, but it’s a great reminder—is like a leaf in the river: Are you swimming against the current or going with the current? What you’re sharing is so beautiful; there is a flow that wants to happen through you, with you, around you, but if you’re constantly trying to manage it all and hold it all together, there’s no room for that. 

When I think about you, this is one of your great gifts, maybe natural, or maybe cultivated, or both… But it’s one of the things I’m always trying to learn from you, and I’ve learned so much, but there’s always more. So many people, in our modern ways of living and culture and technology—it’s really a lost art.

Gigi: It is a lost art.

Makena: Yes.

Gigi: That’s why I still want to do my Arts of a Woman training.

Makena: Yeah, about that.

Gigi: Yeah.

Makena: Absolutely. Oh my gosh, we could talk forever on this topic. I feel like I just got a coaching session, so thank you. Great topic and hopefully you all enjoyed it, took something away from it. Anything else you want to share, Gigi?

Gigi: No, that feels complete.

Makena: Please rate the podcast on whatever platform you listen; that’s super helpful for us. Share this episode with someone you think could get value from it, and have a beautiful start to your holiday season.

Gigi: For those of you who do Thanksgiving, happy holidays and happy Thanksgiving!

Makena: Thank you. See you next time. Thank you. Bye!

Makena: Hi, everyone.

Makena here, and I am recording a solo podcast episode this week. Funny enough, I am actually visiting my mom, Gigi, who is usually on the show with me, and I’m here in Houston visiting her. Our babysitter fell through, so—real life moment—she is watching Sienna, my little one, while I record. That’s what led us here today, and I’m really excited to share this episode. We have been talking about what would be of the most value for you, and a theme that’s come up recently in our coaching is these things that keep you up at night. 

In other words, if you ever wake up in the middle of the night and your mind is racing, with a million different things going on and you can’t get back to sleep, or if you have a hard time getting to sleep in the first place because you lay down and suddenly your mind is flooded with all the things that didn’t cross your mind during the day—or maybe they did, but you’re worrying about them—how do you navigate through those things that keep you up at night?

Right.

So, there are different approaches here, and we—

Want to talk about a couple of—Different aspects of this to help you sleep better from this perspective. We’ve done an episode on sleep, which we can link in the show notes, but that was more around how to optimize your sleep, which is very different. Here, we’re talking about the mental and emotional component of sleeping deeper by clearing your mind so you can fall asleep, hopefully easily and joyfully. What’s keeping you up at night? 

Well, what’s keeping me up at night is my baby—no kidding—but actually sometimes, right? There are those nights when I wake up and I’m nursing her, then it’s time for me to go back to sleep and my mind is running. I’ve learned some strategies, and Gigi’s really taught me some things over the years. 

That’s what I want to share with you: how to clear that out so I can move through those thoughts quickly and go back to sleep.

A great word for this, one Gigi used while we were planning this episode, is “ruminating.”

Ruminating. I almost want to look up—The definition right here while I’m recording.

Ruminating, so I can read it to you. To ruminate is to think deeply about something, and that’s a very high-level definition. Examine attentively or deliberately implies careful weighing of a problem, or often prolonged thinking about a problem. Another definition is repetitive thinking or dwelling on negative feelings and distress and their causes and consequences. So, it can have this sort of not-so-great implication. Sometimes when we’re ruminating, we’re just going around and around. 

When you feel like you’re doing this, the simplest, most effective thing you can do in our experience is to write everything down that’s on your mind. If it’s the middle of the night, you might have to wake up, get a pen and paper, and put everything down because it feels so huge in your mind. But when you get it down onto paper, it’s often not as much as you think, or it might feel that way at night, but then in the morning, when you’re rested and have a clearer mind, you can look at it and see how you want to tackle everything that’s on your mind. 

We’ll talk more about how you can do that here in this episode. This can take the form of a list—just bullet points of things you need to do, worries, concerns, or fears. List it out if that’s easiest for you. Or, if you’re more of a journaler, you can write your thoughts more fully.

This isn’t something you’re going to hold onto. It doesn’t need to be in your most beautiful journal. I’d use scratch paper, loose paper, or a note in your phone—maybe ideally wearing blue light blocking glasses so you’re not on your phone in the middle of the night messing up your melatonin—but getting it all out of your head, onto paper or digital paper, is the first step. 

Once you’ve dumped it all out, come back to the list in the morning when you’re better rested. 

Go through everything you wrote and put it through a few filters. 

The simplest filters we often use are: first, what can you let go of? Sometimes we’re worried about something, or thinking we need to do something, but there’s not a lot we can do about it, or maybe it’s just not the time. Is there anything you can let go of and make peace with yourself about? Relax around it, and let it go.

And hopefully you can cross off at—Least a couple of things using this “let go” filter.

Then you can ask, is there anything I wrote down that can wait until later? Maybe you don’t want to let go completely—you’re worried you’ll forget, or it’s not a priority right now. But you do need to do it eventually, or you want to focus on it. If it can wait until a later date, I always put it on my calendar, maybe a month or two later, to revisit. I’ll set a meeting with myself on my calendar so I don’t forget, and note anything that isn’t a current priority but needs to happen later. 

When that day comes, I reassess: is now the time, or do I push it off again? So, first filter: what can I let go of? Second: what can wait until later? Actually put that on your calendar. Third: is there anything I can delegate, hand off to someone else, or get support with?

That really brings us to the second part of what we want to talk about: systems of support. How do you get supported in your life? This is something we’ve talked about on the podcast before, but it’s always worth revisiting—definitely worth revisiting in the context of this conversation.

In the context of this conversation.

The way I look at delegating is I often ask: what are the biggest pressures in your life right now, personally or professionally, that could potentially be taken on by someone else if they got trained or if someone could come in and support you?

So right now I’m in a phase—Of having a newborn baby—she’s three months old—and I’m working on setting up our family system. We have a part-time nanny, house cleaners once a month, just simple things for support. But it’s not just about hiring people if you can; it’s about looking at the rhythm and flow of our week. 

One area of pressure for us after the baby was born was we had no time for each other anymore. This is so common in relationships—once you have a child or multiple children, you’re full-on taking care of the child so there’s really no time for each other. Maybe when they’re napping, but even then you’re distracted because you don’t know how long they’ll be asleep. So, how do you carve out time for your relationship and also for yourself?

This was one of the pressures for us in those early weeks.

After she was born, I said, okay—What’s a system I could put in place, or where could we get support? We hired a nanny to come weekdays part-time, but then I thought, what if she came in on weekends for a few hours? Then my husband Sunny and I could really use that time for quality time together.

So if there’s anything we need to—Talk about or work on, or just have a long conversation—just time for us, with no distractions and not needing to be there for our little one—we could make it about the two of us. That was the system we put in place for support.

In that case—We delegated childcare during those hours. That helped alleviate that pressure of feeling like we didn’t have time for each other. That’s what I mean: what’s the biggest pressure now? Or there might be multiple, personally and professionally. 

Look at your list or journaling: what, if you cleared it up, would take a huge weight off and be supportive? Is there something you can delegate? If you don’t have the financial means to hire someone, you can get creative. Maybe your spouse or a friend can help, or you can trade with someone. There are many ways to get support that don’t mean just hiring. Get creative and think: how could I approach this?

Something I read years ago that I wanted to mention was from an Alison Armstrong book, though I can’t remember which. Perhaps “Keys to the Kingdom.” Alison Armstrong is a relationship and communication coach, a lot like my mom, but with her own flair.

One thing I loved was the idea in a partnership of each partner owning different areas. For example, Sunny owns taking care of our vehicles. We’ve applied this concept over the years with regular conversations about what he owns and what I own. Sunny manages our vehicles; for the most part, he gets the oil changed, makes sure registrations are up to date—sometimes I help, but mainly it’s his job.

An area I own is travel.

So, seventy-five percent of the time, unless it’s a solo work trip for him, any family travel—which we do a lot—I take on. I research the tickets and rental car, handle most things related to travel. For example, on this trip, we were heading to the airport and Sunny asked, “Wait, we’re flying into Austin and out of Houston?” Then, “What’s happening with the rental car?” I told him, “We’re dropping it off in another city,” and he realized he had no idea what our trip looked like because that’s my area. He wasn’t concerned or didn’t think to ask, which is a great example. I enjoy it, so it’s something I own. This can apply to whole categories—like who takes out the trash (his area), or who does the laundry (my area).

Whereas I might have something else—I do most of our laundry. It seems silly when you break it down to that level, but it takes so much stress and pressure away. If you’re always tag-teaming everything in a relationship, it’s a lot of work and mental effort for both people. If you can own certain areas, it frees part of your brain and you know: that’s my partner’s area. They’ve got this.

So, that’s something you can think about as well.

If you’re in a partnership, or even—In your family system or dynamic.

With your kids, there could be areas certain kids own. Growing up, I loved grocery shopping and cooking; sometimes as a teen, I took that on and did most of the grocery shopping and some of the cooking for our family. So you can get your kids involved and see—

What areas they might like to own. That gives them a sense of responsibility. And takes something off your plate so you’re not trying to do it all. That’s something we see a lot with women in our work—they end up taking a— Lot of these things on. And that can lead to— Staying up at night or waking up thinking about a million things you need to do.

So, we’ve talked about a lot of—Different things already—ruminating, getting up to write it all down, then looking at what you can let go, what can wait and go on the calendar, and what you can delegate. Delegating doesn’t just mean hiring help; it can mean trading, looking at areas you or someone else in your family or partnership dynamic owns. 

There are many ways to get creative. If you do have the ability to hire help, that’s great to consider too—house cleaners once a month (like we do), or weekly, or whatever frequency, help organizing, or even gig workers from local Facebook groups who’ll come for a few hours. There are creative ways to approach this. It could be childcare.

Getting support—like our part-time nanny, or a babysitter so you can have a date night. Childcare is definitely a type of support you can hire. A virtual assistant is one we often talk about and support our clients with, thinking through how they can hire or delegate to them. A lot of people struggle with this. I was one of those people who thought I had to do everything myself because I did it “better” than anyone else could. 

That was my way for a long time—I’m effective at getting things done. Gigi, when we were growing our business, said, “Makena, you can’t hold all of this. There’s no way. You don’t have the time, and you’re stressed, pressured, and overwhelmed.” So, we hired our first VA. At first, it was like pulling teeth for me to delegate anything. I thought, “It’s too slow, too hard, she doesn’t know what to do.” Gigi said, “You need to slow down. Train her on each thing exactly how you want it. Give feedback. It’ll feel like it takes so much time, but it’ll free you up in the end.” She was so right—I trained our first assistant really well, and after a few months, she did it better than I could and knew exactly what I wanted. 

She worked with us for years, then we’ve had many others since. It’s a great feeling to have that team—a well-oiled machine, or even just one person who takes on so much personally or professionally. 

So, a virtual assistant is another great example.

Or an in-person assistant. There are many ways to get support. You can hire someone to come in and cook meals.

You can hire—There are many options if you look into hiring, but always start with: what’s the area you feel most pressured by, or what do you not want to do—and who could support you in that? 

I want to reference an episode where we went deeper into this, called “Every Pressure Needs a System.” I believe that’s the name of the episode. We’ll link it in the show notes. We go more deeply into—This concept of pressures and how you get support. We talk about some things—

I’ve mentioned here, but also go much deeper. 

So, this is basically your system, your flow— When you’re up in the middle of the night thinking about a million things and can’t sleep. These are geared toward tasks and things that overwhelm you.

Sometimes what’s keeping you up at night is more emotional or—Something you’re worried about. If that’s the case, this still works; you definitely want to write it down and get it out of your brain. Otherwise, you keep going around and around. Writing it down pulls it out of your mind and gives you perspective. Then, ask yourself the same questions: Can I let this go? Is there any support I could get around this—maybe talking it through with someone, a coach, therapist, or family member. If it’s child-related, usually I call my sister Mariah, who’s been a parenting coach and has two babies of her own. This is her wheelhouse. 

Or sometimes Gigi—usually for other issues that come up. Again, write it down, and ask: can I let this go? If not, what kind of support do I need? Or maybe it’s something you’re spinning over, but it’s not something you need to focus on now. You can put it off for later. The same system applies. You may need more support if it’s emotional: talking it through, working it out yourself.

If it is more emotional, maybe you pray or meditate, or have a practice that helps bring you peace. That can be your own system. Write it all out, say a prayer, hand it over to God, or meditate and let it go. Whatever works for you, create your own repeatable process to make peace so you can sleep. If you can’t tell, I’m a sleep person—sleep is very important to me. I love this topic.

That’s a little bit about how to shift and let go of the things keeping you up at night. If you have any questions, reach out to us—we’d love to hear from you. You can email me at makena@wayofthemuse.com. Also, let us know what other topics you’d like to hear—we’re always curious. Usually we share from our own lives and what we see with our clients and coaching. As you may notice—or if this is your first episode—we have a wide variety of topics, but we love it that way.

Thank you. Thank you.

Share this with someone who you think could really use it—a friend or family member who’s stressed or stays up at night worrying. Share this episode so they can learn the system and a different approach. It’s a huge gift to give someone. We’re heading into the holiday season—I love this time of year! We’ll have some fun topics for you around this time. See you in the next episode. All right, everyone—see you next time.

Bye. Bye.