Makena: Hello everyone!

Gigi: Hi Makena. Hi everyone. Thank you so much for tuning in.

Makena: Yeah, we have a different type of episode today because this one really came out of my own curiosity. I wanted to interview Gigi on the stages of life—the different seasons of life that women go through. 

Gigi, you’ve been through all of these stages. You’re in the wise woman stage, which we’ll share is the fourth stage. But not only have you gone through them yourself, you’ve also coached a lot of women at different stages of life. 

You’ve raised daughters who have gone through most of these stages. I think your unique perspective on the different seasons of life—what we go through, what you’d say to your younger self, or what advice you’d give to younger women—would be really fun to hear, for me and for our listeners.

Gigi: Yeah, me too. She came up with this and we invented it like this. If I had more time to think about it, it would be fleshed out much better. But I think it’s good. There will be certain little tips…

Makena: Here and there. We’ll just have a dialogue.

So, the stages we’re going to talk about today—there are four of them. The first one we’re going to call Maiden or Young Woman. That’s your 20s into early 30s. The second one we’re calling Queen, which is really kind of your prime—that’s around 33 to 43 or so. Then we have Alchemist, which is that midlife time of maybe 44 to 60. And then finally, Wise Woman, which is post-menopausal, or roughly 60+.

We’ll go into each of these. One thing to say first is that these are generalizations. Also, something Gigi brought up before we were recording: it really depends if you have kids or not, when you have children, and if you’re in a long-term relationship. So there are a lot of factors. We can’t take everything into account, but we’re going to share a general high-level look at each stage.

So let’s begin.

With Maiden or Young Woman, again—this is your 20s or early 30s. If you had the mic, which you do right now, to speak to women in this season of life, what advice would you give them? How can they make the most of this time?

Gigi: You know, the first thing that came to mind when you asked this was: have a lot of fun. This is your time. Your 20s and early 30s are when you’re just putting things together. So it’s a time to have so much fun. Learn things. Get out there and explore life. Try different things. Of course, you’ve got to earn. This is a time to explore your passions and do a lot of different things. You need to have a job or some way of earning money, but it is a time of exploration, curiosity, and adventure.

You have this time to start seeing: What do you like? What do you love doing?

Makena: What if someone—like me, I guess—ends up in a career that’s great, but it’s not really what they want to be doing, and they’re scared to make a change? I see a lot of people who follow a path they think they should, or what they studied in school. How does someone like that tap into the fun and exploration?

Gigi: It makes sense. I believe if you studied something in school and got a job—even if it’s not “it”—you’re learning something very valuable: how to stay committed to something. That builds a foundation for your work ethic. I think maybe the challenge is staying a little too long. So if you’re working at something and it’s not quite it, remember that you’re out there exploring.

The main thing is: create a life around your work. Enjoy your life. Take some of that money and start learning to invest. Find a mentor early on who teaches you about money—how to build it, invest, and save. It’s so important at an early age because we don’t learn that in school.

So, I’m not saying bounce around to a bunch of different jobs. I’m saying in your life, explore different things—dance, sing, whatever it is. Have a fun-filled life, not just a working life. That’s where you got a little serious for a while.

Makena: Mm, yeah. Be responsible. I had a lot of fun too and definitely traveled and explored, but I got very serious in my career and felt stuck. I think that’s what you’re saying—you’re young enough to pivot, try things, take risks, and even fail at this stage. You don’t have to get it all “right.” And to prioritize fun—especially if you think you want a partnership or family. If you have that time before a long-term relationship and kids, this is the time to be a little more carefree.

Gigi: Carefree is a great word. You can still be paying your bills and putting away some money, but it’s important to build a life around your work that includes adventure and enjoyment. That’s part of what this time in life is built for.

Makena: Are there any other challenges or pitfalls you see for women at this stage? Things you wish you could tell them?

Gigi: Don’t get stuck in relationships or jobs that don’t serve you. Maybe you have to stay for a while, but keep looking and go for something different. Don’t get stuck in fear. This is a time to be courageous—to do what scares you. You’re developing mentally and emotionally. Try different things and have confidence that life will work for you.

Makena: Yeah, I stayed stuck in a career for a while. I didn’t get stuck in relationships, but I see women who stay longer than needed—out of comfort, maybe. What do you want to say about that?

Gigi: If you want children, and you’re with a partner who doesn’t want children, that’s a non-negotiable. This is a critical time period. You may think you have time, but if someone doesn’t want a family and you do, you need to move on. There are other fish in the sea.

Makena: I’d add: don’t be afraid to have those conversations early on in dating. Be honest with yourself about what you want. I see a lot of young women say they’re flexible or undecided, and that’s okay if you’re in your early 20s. But we do have a biological clock, and it’s worth thinking about. If you are clear or can get clear, own what you want.

Otherwise, people wake up someday and go, “Wait, I really want a family.” And maybe they’re in a relationship with someone who doesn’t—or didn’t prioritize looking for a partner. I see a lot of women in their mid-to-late 30s struggle with this.

Makena: Yeah, definitely. So let’s talk about the next stage, which we’re calling the Queen or your prime. That’s approximately, let’s say, 33 to 43. I’m in this stage right now—smack dab in the middle of it. What advice would you give to women in this season? How can they make the most of this time?

Gigi: This is a time to build. I always say by 33, you want to be pretty much into something that you want to dig your heels into—put some work in and grow something. This is the time to really learn how to grow something, to be committed to something.

Now again, this is coming from me, and in many ways, I’m old school. These days, people don’t stay in jobs that long. But this doesn’t mean you have to stay in the same job forever—it means building in a direction. So when you get into your 40s, you’ve gathered enough experience to either build something new or take something deeper.

Many people go into their 40s and 50s and that’s when they really build their careers. Because they’ve been working at something, they’ve learned how to build, they know what they want—and what they don’t want.

So I’d say the biggest thing here is: build. Get focused. Even if it’s not “it,” go for it. Because in that process, you gain so much that will guide your next move. You’ll have gathered experience, confidence, and clarity.

Makena: Yeah, can you talk a little more about that—even if it’s not “it”? Because I think there are people at this point who have found a direction or path they want to build in. But a lot of people are still saying, “I don’t know,” or “I’m doing something, but I don’t think this is it.” What do you mean by “get in there and build even if it’s not it”?

Gigi: I think it’s really important, as I said, that by this age—33, 35—you commit to something and go for it for a few years. Unless you’re absolutely miserable and can’t do it, I really believe that when women do this, it gives them opportunity.

You learn what you want and what you don’t want. You learn how to make something move, how to grow something, how to have intent, how to commit. And then, by doing that, you can get clearer about what you do want.

In your late 30s and early 40s, it’s a powerful time to shift if you need to. But you’ll go into that shift with so much power and knowledge.

Makena: I have a couple of questions about that. One is: what’s the alternative? It’s someone who just continues to flit around, trying a bunch of different things, and never really committing to anything for more than a few months or a year. Like they’re still acting like they’re in their 20s and have all the time in the world.

And again, there’s no right or wrong here—we’re not judging. But if you want to build something long-term, at some point you need to get in there with intent, grow in something, build confidence and skills, and then you’ll have the foundation to evaluate: is this really it?

I guess my second question is about women who have children and take a break from work. We’ve talked about this in other podcast episodes—like the one we’ll link in the show notes about Babies or Business: Can I Really Have It All?

But how do you see that factor into this whole “building” time? Because a lot of women take time off in their 30s to raise kids. Is it just individual, or what do you see?

Gigi: Yeah, it’s tricky. I also believe women should start early on learning how to take care of themselves financially. If I could go back and talk to younger women, I would say the financial piece is huge—learning how to take care of yourself.

I wish we had more time and I had brought stats, but there are statistics that show when men and women get divorced, women’s lifestyles decrease enormously. So if you’re going to stay home, that’s great—but you need to figure out how you’ll be taken care of financially.

Yes, empowering your partner is one way, because you’re absolutely building with them by being their support. But I do feel that needs to be clearly set up—that you know how you’ll be taken care of if something happens.

The biggest pitfall I see is women thinking, “Oh, that would never happen to me.” And then we get into a conversation and I ask, “Are you taken care of?” And many times… they’re not.

Makena: And when you say “taken care of,” you mean if something happened—like a divorce—would they be financially secure?

Gigi: Exactly. Would you be financially supported?

Makena: Yeah. I think that’s a really important conversation—and one people don’t want to look at. They don’t want to think about it.

Gigi: Right.

Makena: So how do you walk women through that? Let’s say someone wants to take time off for many years—how do they approach this?

Gigi: First of all, know everything about your money situation. I find so many women say, “Well, I don’t really handle that,” or, “I’m not sure.” So my first piece of advice is: have business meetings with your partner every month. Know where everything is. Have access to every bank account. Be an equal partner. This is your business, if you’re going to stay home.

If your partner is the breadwinner, great—but you’re empowering that partnership. Don’t just turn it over and say, “Oh, they handle that.”

And have these conversations early on in your relationship. You’re a team. You’re running a business together, whatever their job is. And you’re both choosing for you to stay home.

Makena: That’s super interesting. This is one of the biggest pitfalls in marriages and partnerships, you’re saying?

Gigi: One of the biggest. And it even shows up for women who aren’t staying home.

Makena: Yeah, just not knowing what’s going on with the money.

Gigi: Exactly.

Makena: We didn’t expect the conversation to go here, but I think it’s incredibly valuable. And it’s not about making women afraid or telling them not to stay home—it’s about being conscious and having the conversations.

Gigi: Yes.

Makena: Not just assuming “it’ll all work out.”

Gigi: Because unfortunately, far too many women learn the hard way.

Makena: So if someone wants to take time off with kids, one option is to be super proactive and understand the finances, and the other option is to maybe stay connected to something—part-time work, freelance, learning something new. Keep your earning potential there.

Gigi: Yes. Even small projects where you earn a little—it doesn’t have to be a full-time career, but something that keeps your mind active and your skills sharp. It keeps your intelligence in that arena. I feel very strongly about that. Others may disagree, and that’s fine, but I’ve seen it over and over.

Makena: What else in your Queen era do you think is important?

Gigi: On the other side of things: some women are too focused on their career. They forget they want a partnership or children. They think they’ll do it later. They get addicted to success—or just addicted to work and the stress—and think they don’t have time.

That is baloney.

If you want a partner, it needs to be a top priority. If you’re in a successful career, you have to dedicate time every week and go after it. No excuses. You might have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find your prince.

But if you bring the same level of commitment to finding a partner that you bring to your career, you’ll find one. I’ve coached women all over the world through this.

The pitfall is thinking, “It’ll just happen someday.” If you’re busy and don’t make time, it might not happen. And if you really want that, you don’t want to regret it later.

Makena: Yeah, absolutely. Definitely.

Gigi: Another one is staying physically active. This is your time to really build community as well. Grow and build a community, so as you move into your 40s—especially if you have children—you’ll have people around you.

If you do have kids, you’re going to be busy with them and with your career or business. You want to have a community that will grow with you through your 40s, 50s, and beyond. Some people have connections through university or from growing up, and they stay close to those friends. But often, people don’t. And this is your time—especially when your kids are growing up—you can meet great people.

Those are the people to stay friends with. Stay friends with a lot of diverse people too. That would be another thing I’d say.

Makena: Yeah, because I think a lot of people—especially if they have kids—lose connection to people who aren’t in the same stage of life. So it’s important to keep some kind of link to different kinds of people. That can really add a lot of richness as you get older.

Gigi: It does. And you don’t know where those people will come back into your life. But if you don’t stay connected, you may end up with a narrow circle. You’re going to grow and evolve so much over the years—you won’t even recognize yourself 20 or 30 years from now.

Of course, parts of you will stay the same, but hopefully you evolve into better and better versions of yourself. That’s the proper way to grow.

Makena: Absolutely. Another area you touched on is health. That’s important in all decades of life, right?

Gigi: Yes, of course. In your 20s, you feel invincible.

Makena: Or less aware of your health. I don’t know—I’ve always prioritized health because I’ve had health challenges. But like, for my husband, he was one of those people who was just always healthy. His body just worked. He never had to think about it.

But as he’s gotten into his later 30s, it’s like—whoa—different things are breaking down, or not healing like they used to. And it’s a wake-up call: I’m not invincible.

Gigi: Yes. Not to generalize or gender-stereotype, but men often think that—they think they’re invincible.

Makena: Yep. So health and finances—those feel like two of the big through lines that, if you can start early and take even small steps, they really add up. Make a small investment. Start a retirement fund. Learn about nutrition or exercise.

Over the years, those little steps prevent bigger issues—or at least support you in navigating them.

Gigi: Yes, absolutely.

Makena: There was one more thing you wanted to touch on in this Queen stage, which is: if you’re already in a long-term relationship, what should you be focused on?

Gigi: Yes. This is a time where—especially if you have kids or you’re both building careers—people can start living separate lives a little bit. They’re just busy.

And there’s this myth that it’s normal. That it’ll work itself out. “We’ll get back to each other later.” But this is a very serious mistake.

It’s so important—especially as you approach your 40s—to reinvent your relationship. Put time and attention into growing it to the next level.

Because here’s what happens: kids come, or careers take over, and if you don’t find time together, you start growing apart. And sometimes it becomes very hard to come back together.

You feel like you don’t even know the person anymore. That’s when people start talking about a midlife crisis. They feel alone. They feel disconnected. And that’s when things break down.

There’s also a point where women hit around 43 and say, “This is my life. Is this the life I really want?” And often, women will leave their marriages during this time.

Makena: I see that too. So what you’re saying is: in your 30s and early 40s, start investing in your relationship so it’s strong going into that next phase.

Gigi: Yes. Instead of growing apart, you go through those challenging transitions together. You build a stronger muscle as a couple. You deepen your connection.

Makena: I see this especially with people who have kids. Their 30s and early 40s become all about the kids, and they just go, “We’ll have time later.” But like you said, it doesn’t always bounce back.

So it’s about being conscious—not just hoping it’ll work. Prioritize your relationship. Whether it’s your sex life or your communication—don’t let it slide for too long.

Gigi: Exactly. And when you prioritize your relationship, that means you make time for it. Not just a weekly date night—you’re attentive to your partner. You make quality time a priority.

If you have children, it’s also valuable for them to see that. It’s important for kids to see their parents spending time together away from them. And learning how to give their parents that space.

That’s great role-modeling for future relationships.

Makena: So now we’re kind of on the border between Queen and the next stage, which is the Alchemist—midlife, roughly 44 to 60.

Let’s talk about that. What advice would you give to women in that season of life?

Gigi: Take everything you’ve learned so far—and really build something. If you want to start your own thing, go for it. If you want to grow a strong marriage, go for it.

Everything you’ve learned—apply it now. This is some of the most powerful time in your life.

This is also when women go through menopause. And we’ll talk about that more later. But this is a time when you want to build your lifestyle.

You’ve probably had some success. If you have kids, they may be teenagers. Maybe not. But either way, it’s time to design how you want to live over the next 20 years.

What kind of lifestyle do you want? Bring in the elements you love. You know yourself so well at this point.

And just like in your 20s, make sure you’re still having fun. Set up a lifestyle with pleasure, rhythm, time off—something you really enjoy.

Makena: Yeah, it feels like the Queen stage is planting and watering seeds—and this Alchemist stage is the harvest.

Gigi: Yes. Exactly.

Makena: Let’s say you’re still raising your family at this stage—what should people be focusing on around family and relationship?

Gigi: I think creating your family structures. Not just with your kids, but with your parents, too. If your parents are older, how are you going to navigate that?

People don’t want to think about this—and then it hits them over the head. But if you think about it ahead of time, you’ll see options. And then it’s not a problem—it’s integrated into your life plan.

Makena: Can you say more about that? What are you asking women to face or look at?

Gigi: If you have aging parents, at some point you’ll probably need to support them. It depends on their health and circumstances. But it’s important to start asking: How would we handle that?

What do we do as a family? Do you have siblings? What’s the plan?

Because I’ve seen this become a huge issue in families. Nobody plans. Nobody talks. And then one sibling ends up with all the responsibility, or it becomes a conflict.

It doesn’t have to be that way. You can set it up with clear roles and plans—financial and otherwise. And then it becomes just part of life—not a crisis.

Makena: Yeah, so just being proactive, thinking ahead, having conversations with your parents, siblings, and your partner about how you’ll navigate things if your parents’ health declines or they need financial support.

Gigi: Yes. It’s not a fun conversation, but it’s so necessary. If you plan early, you avoid so much unnecessary pain and conflict later.

Makena: What else in this stage?

Gigi: If you’re in a relationship, again, make sure you continue to invest in it. And financially—make sure you’re setting up for retirement. Keep your eye on your finances. What are your savings like? What are your systems?

Start dreaming about retirement. Think ahead. You don’t have to wait until your 60s to think about how you want to live. Some people want to retire early. That’s great—but have you thought about how?

Makena: Absolutely. And now let’s talk about menopause, because that’s a big one for this stage. We did a whole podcast episode about it, which we’ll link in the show notes, but just at a high level—what do you see?

Gigi: Menopause is a time of change, and yes—it can be uncomfortable. There are physical aspects to it. But it’s also different for every single woman, so we can’t generalize.

In our other episode, we talked about how menopause has gotten a bad rap. Everything around it is framed negatively, and I don’t believe that’s how it should be.

It can be a pitfall if you let it take you off course. Some women start blaming everything on menopause—and while the changes are real, it can also become an excuse to avoid doing the deeper personal work.

This is a time of reflection. Around 42 to 45, people tend to ask: Is this the life I want? So menopause, in many ways, is part of that process. It’s a clearing out of what no longer serves you, and a welcoming in of who you’re becoming.

So I see it as an awakening—an opportunity to take all the power you’ve gathered and really ask: What do I want now?

Makena: I love that. Just reframing it. Yes, it can be intense. But it can also be a powerful transition.

Gigi: Exactly. You’re stepping into your power—into a deeper version of yourself.

Makena: So that’s one of the big pitfalls—blaming everything on menopause or not working through what’s underneath.

We also talked about the pitfall of not investing in your relationship at this stage—and of course, financial preparation is another big one. Making sure you’re still building or maintaining your earning power if you can, or that you’re set up long-term.

Gigi: Yes, those are the big ones I see over and over again.

Makena: So that takes us to the Wise Woman stage, which is the last of the stages we want to talk about here. This is really 60 onwards, and probably postmenopausal. What advice would you give to women in this season of life? How can they make the most of it?

Gigi: This is a time to do what you want—to live the life you’ve built. You don’t have the same kind of energy, maybe, but you have wisdom, you have intelligence, and you have a different way of being.

This stage is about being, not doing. It’s the shift from striving and pushing to really embodying who you are.

You have enormous life experience, and the greatest gift now is to share it. Whether that’s with your family, friends, or through your work.

I’m blessed to have my work where I get to use and share that wisdom. And this stage is also a time of reinvention—a time to look ahead and ask: How do I want to live the next 20 or 30 years?

Because you can become a completely new version of yourself. Maybe you raised your children. Maybe you’ve finished one career. Now you get to ask: What do I want now?

It’s almost like a time of play.

Makena: A second childhood?

Gigi: Yes! A return to another version of childhood. Some women become actresses in their 60s. Some become authors or start businesses. You can do anything.

But the distinction is: the energy is different. It’s no longer about making things happen physically. It’s about being, about using your energy intentionally.

Because if you stay in the same stressful pattern of your 30s and 40s, it will start to take a toll. Not because you’re weaker, but because your body and spirit are calling for something else.

Of course, you can still be strong and active—absolutely. But it takes more intentionality now.

Makena: Yeah. Hopefully, you’ve been prioritizing your health along the way, but it becomes a different focus at this stage.

Gigi: Yes.

Makena: Can you talk about the difference between women who age quickly versus those who keep a kind of youthfulness in this stage?

Gigi: For me, it’s always about aliveness. Are you doing the things you love? Are you staying curious?

This is the time to go back into adventure mode—learn new things, keep your brain active, move your body, stay engaged with life.

The people who say, “Well, I’m getting older, it’s all downhill from here,” tend to age faster—physically, mentally, and emotionally.

But the people who are constantly evolving, learning, growing—they stay young at heart.

Makena: Yeah, and I think there’s a narrative that after a certain point, you’ve lived your life and it’s all kind of the same or downhill. But we’re living to 80s, 90s, even 100 now. That’s decades of life.

Gigi: Yes! So don’t just let it go. Keep something that you care about. Keep something you’re learning, something you’re curious about.

That’s what keeps people young. Have something you love doing—gardening, dancing, painting, mentoring—whatever it is.

Makena: I think that’s such a key: even if it’s something simple, do what you love. Don’t just shrink your world down.

Gigi: Yes. And find ways to be in service too. That could be to your family or your community. That doesn’t mean overextending yourself—but it means sharing your wisdom. Be a mentor. Be someone people come to. Or start something new.

But always stay mentally and physically active. Those are the two keys here.

Makena: And hopefully, if you’ve been financially planning all along, this is a time to enjoy your life.

Gigi: Yes. And you can still earn money in this time too, if you want. Just like when I turned 60 and we started our mentorship—I was just beginning a new kind of career.

Makena: Yeah, you were turning 60 the year we officially started our mentorship, and I was turning 30. And since then, we’ve done so many projects like this podcast where you get to share your wisdom.

Gigi: Yes, and I don’t think I’ll ever fully retire in the traditional sense. Of course, I’ll shift how I work. But I want to stay mentally active—maybe writing books or dancing. Who knows?

Makena: She’s going to have a whole new career as a rock star in her 70s.

Gigi: Yes! The 70-year-old rock star!

Makena: All right, well thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. And thank you everyone for listening. If you have someone in your life you think would enjoy this or benefit from it—no matter what stage of life they’re in—please share it with them.

We’ll see you in the next episode.

Gigi: Thank you.

Makena: Thanks, Gigi.

Makena: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Way of the Muse. I’m Makena and this is Gigi. We’re excited to be back with you all this week talking about a topic that I feel is very hot right now. I’ve been wanting to do this episode for a while, which is boundaries. 

How do you set boundaries in your personal life, in your work or professional life, and do that in such a way that it’s effective and not abrasive or something that might alienate people or disrupt your relationships? So that’s what we’re going to start with today. Gigi, do you want to say anything before we jump in?

Gigi: Yes, like you said, this is a topic that comes up a lot in coaching. When we work with people, we’re working with their relationships and all the different dynamics and arguments that are going on. Often I’ll have a client come to me and say they’re setting boundaries, and like you said, Makena, you can immediately feel this is not going to be pretty. They thought they were having issues before, but now when they set this boundary, it’s even more problematic because of where it’s coming from. I’m excited we’re talking about this today so people know there’s an approach to boundaries—it doesn’t have to be all or nothing.

Makena: Definitely. What we see a lot is something we call the “pendulum swing.” There are pendulum swings in all sorts of things, but if you imagine a pendulum going all the way from one side to the other, this is often what happens around boundaries. 

Usually, people who don’t have boundaries in place end up resentful or frustrated. That builds up, and then they might swing to the other side where every little transgression feels huge, and they overreact. So, they go from not really setting boundaries or letting people walk all over them to overly reacting.

Gigi: I’m so embarrassed because I see myself in this.

Makena: She was like, “Did you write this episode about me?” I said, “No, I didn’t even think about you.” But I guess it was a good self-reflection moment. We all have our areas, right? What ends up happening is this creates a lot of drama. 

Sometimes it can even damage relationships and people start cutting others out of their lives, saying, “Well, they can’t hold my boundaries so they’ve got to go.” There may occasionally be a time and place for that, but for the most part, there’s a way to approach this so you don’t have to go that far. That’s what we want for our listeners.

Gigi: Yes, and there’s actually kind of a problem with the word “boundary” because it has this energy attached to it—it implies there’s a wall between you and someone else. What we want to share first of all is that a better approach is boundaries are, first and foremost, about the standards you actually set for yourself. For me, this has been huge; Makena, you’ve taught me so much about really seeing what’s right for me. 

Sometimes I just don’t even look at that. It’s about being clear—what’s right for me, what’s wrong for me, what works and what doesn’t work in my world. When we live in accordance with the standards we set and communicate them clearly, boundaries become easy to uphold. It doesn’t have to have anger or forcefulness behind every time anyone does something; you don’t have to push back. The main thing about boundaries and setting up what works in relationships and communication is: how does it create more harmony? That’s what it does—you’re not nitpicking about the little things.

Makena: Yes, I think a huge misconception is that boundaries need to be dramatic or will always create a lot of conflict. The real reason for boundaries, like you’re saying, is actually to eliminate that. If things are clear and in place—like when I was in marketing and copywriting, every time there was an issue with a client and something wasn’t clear, I would look at whatever it was and write it into my contract for next time. I’d work with my lawyer to write in all the timelines, expectations, everything. Over the years, the contract became robust, not too crazy, but enough so everyone knew the expectation: I’ll deliver drafts by these dates, I expect a review by this date, and if it doesn’t happen, here’s what happens. I may need to prioritize other work. 

Over time, it made things clearer and there were fewer breakdowns, miscommunications, and frustrations. We’re not always going to do contracts that in-depth, but you can use contracts in your personal life as well as your professional life. Gigi’s here in California with me, and she has my dog Chloe on her lap—so cute! But yes, contracts help clarify things. Even if it’s just a verbal agreement, the result should be less frustration, less confusion, and, as you said, Gigi, more harmony.

Gigi: The bottom line is harmony and taking the push and pull out of things. All my clients listening know I have them write contracts with their kids, with everyone. In it, there’s accountability on both sides; it really sets up knowing what’s expected of everyone. 

Even with our children, things can get murky, but contracts teach them accountability—if they don’t keep their word, there are consequences. It’s just a great way to learn. In all my decades of coaching, when people start something and I ask if there’s a contract or something written, they say they’ll get around to it, but later, because they didn’t do it, things backfire. We never fully remember what was said. When money starts moving in a business, people forget parts of the agreement. It’s not that they’re bad people; it’s human nature. 

That’s why we have contracts: we put it in writing so there’s clarity, and then we can focus on good relationships and dynamics.

Makena: What do you think it is that makes people not want to put contracts in place? Even in professional situations, people skirt around it.

Gigi: That’s a good question. Maybe it’s about incurring the cost to get a lawyer and do a contract. But often you don’t need a full legal contract—just writing down the agreement, what the two people agreed to, signed, and thinking through what could come up. Previous experiences give you information—you learn what works and what doesn’t, correct as you go, and get good at seeing what serves both people. Another thing is assumption: we assume when we say and agree on something, the other person sees it the same way. But definitions differ. For example, integrity may mean something different to me than to someone else.

Makena: I like to imagine a six written on the sidewalk between you and someone else. They’re standing on the other side; you’re both seeing it, but one says it’s a six, the other says it’s a nine.

Gigi: Exactly.

Makena: You might not realize the other person sees it as a nine until much later. People interpret things differently; we want to think the best, but maybe people feel that if they put a contract in place, they’re doubting someone’s integrity. That’s not it at all. Contracts and agreements set everyone up for success, protect relationships, and prevent breakdowns.

Gigi: From my experience, most of the time contracts protect relationships. It’s not about trust, but having all questions answered. Otherwise, you spend time thinking, worrying, wondering if the other person will follow through. People waste so much time in their minds, fighting and worrying, and it can ruin businesses and cost millions.

Makena: Yes. The reason I’m so boundaried—though it’s still a growth area for you, as you say—is really because you’ve taught me so much. When I had a big contract, I spent weeks negotiating upfront. Yes, I worried that maybe I’d lose the contract, but it was important because later, I had the contract to reference and it saved me a messy situation. We’re talking a lot about business contracts, but you can do this even in your personal life. Just write out your agreements with someone and sign it. It’s about the spirit of it, both having a copy, not necessarily the legally binding nature.

Gigi: Yes, sometimes people want to go back and change their minds, and that’s fine if you’ve written it in the contract that you’ll revisit it at a certain time. It’s so worth thinking these things through to save yourself time, pain, money, emotional stress, drama, and relationships.

Makena: I think another reason people don’t do this is they’re moving quickly and don’t want to think through things upfront. But, as you say, it saves so much time and energy in the long run. I want to come back to your point that boundaries are standards we set for ourselves. Let’s give examples. Maybe you never check work emails on weekends. Over time, even if company culture is different, people come to know that’s your standard. You might have an autoresponder that says you’ll reply Monday. That’s a standard you uphold for yourself. 

Another version: someone who doesn’t gossip. People might try to have those conversations, but you just don’t engage, and over time, people realize not to bring up gossip around you. You don’t have to make a big deal out of it. People see how you operate through your behavior. 

Third example: you only commit to something if you have the bandwidth and will follow through. Many of us say yes when we mean no. When you step back and check in first, people see you as reliable and someone who keeps their word. So those are a few examples.

Gigi: I love those examples. You probably want to know: how can I identify where I need to set better boundaries? Many people really don’t know. Some ways you can do that: are there places where you’re saying yes and you mean no? Or start to look at where you feel resentful or frustrated on a regular basis. 

I’ve defined certain areas for myself and cleaned them up by asking, “What am I tolerating that I don’t want to anymore?” My coach once asked, “Where do you need to say, ‘That’s enough?'” Also, look at where you feel like you’re giving more than receiving. These are great places to discover where you might need boundaries.

Makena: Great questions. Where are you saying yes when you want to say no, or giving more than you receive? We’re not going to go deep into the why—yes, maybe you want to explore that, but here we’re talking about how to shift it. Where is it showing up, and how can you make a shift? 

So don’t analyze why you’re a people pleaser—just look at where it’s happening and pick one or two things to start. Some common scenarios where boundaries might be needed: at work, saying yes to projects even though you’re too busy, ending up frustrated or burned out, which doesn’t serve you or the company. 

Stepping back, look at your bandwidth and say, “I can’t do it all—what are the priorities?” That’s a good way to approach your boss. With clients, coaches get frustrated with clients who cancel last minute, contact them outside business hours, or ask for more than agreed—scope creep. At some point, that doesn’t feel good anymore. These are examples where better boundaries are needed with clients. What about personally, Gigi, like with friends?

Gigi: Being late all the time is a big one—if your friends run late or cancel last minute, and for you, time is super important, that can be tough. You might have a conscious conversation: “I value your time and mine—if you can’t make it, please text me or let me know ahead.” And ask them to be on time. Or, you could add humor: some friends are always late, so you say, “I’ll show up 30 minutes late since you always run late.” There are light ways to handle it, too.

Makena: You have to see what works for you. What are other boundary scenarios?

Gigi: With team members, not following through on commitments is common. It creates frustration in a team if one person doesn’t pull their weight. It’s important to acknowledge commitments and ask, “Can you do this? If not, what do we do?” Maybe they need support, but it has to be addressed, not just let frustration build. 

In relationships, your partner might not help with household responsibilities, so you have to talk about what support you want or your expectations. Or, a partner not following through on something they agreed to. These little frustrations build up a lot. Really, what we’re talking about is not necessarily boundary violations but maybe you haven’t set or communicated the boundary yet. We’ll talk about how to do that next. 

So, pause the podcast, write those down, or think about your top one or two areas to work on. Now, the question is: how can you communicate your boundaries to others in a healthy way?

Gigi: To get clear about what you want, you have to ask yourself honest questions. If you were truly honest about your needs, what would you ask for? Where does the frustration come from? What would you ask for if you trusted people would respect and love you? Maybe you’re worried that asking will drive people away or cause conflict. What are you afraid will happen if you set the boundary? I think it’s important to look into your fear. Like you said, when you put it into a contract and were specific ahead of time, you worried you might not get the job, right?

Makena: Yes, definitely. There was always a chance they would say I was being too upfront or difficult. I wasn’t trying to be difficult—I just needed clarity. I wasn’t asking for anything over the top, just making sure things were clear. Sure, in the back of my mind I worried maybe they’d walk away, but with enough money and time involved, it was worth it.

Gigi: You have to be willing to take that risk, because when people don’t do this, it ends up a mess.

Makena: Absolutely. The other big one, after you get clear on what you want, is never complain and never explain. Gigi, you taught me this. When communicating a boundary or a request, don’t start by complaining about past issues. 

For instance, don’t go to your partner and list all the ways they’ve failed—it’s not the way to start the conversation. Ideally, you just say, “Hey, I’ve been thinking about this, and I’d love to make a request. Could you take out the trash once a week?” 

That’s more of a request than a boundary, but if they’d agreed and hadn’t been doing it, you might say, “I noticed that hasn’t been happening, is there something else we could do to ensure it gets done?” There’s no complaining, just stating facts, not pointing fingers or over-explaining—just stating, “Here’s what we agreed, it hasn’t been happening, what can we do?” Is there anything you want to add, Gigi?

Gigi: This is really difficult. It’s so hard to do.

Makena: Yes.

Gigi: When we’re personally connected with people, have history and communication patterns, it’s so easy to go unconscious and just complain—“You never do this!” and then list everything else they haven’t done. Then ask for what you want, but now the person’s defensive.

Makena: Exactly.

Gigi: I get it—I make this mistake all the time. With a little finesse and time, learning artful communication will save you time and energy. But in the beginning, it feels frustrating and time-consuming.

Makena: That’s so much of what we work with clients on—not just boundaries, but communication in their personal and professional lives. This is really your genius, Gigi, and a lot of what you’ve taught me: how to have conversations in a neutral, collaborative, non-combative way. It’s about inviting them to help find solutions. 

At a high level, that’s easy to say, but it’s nuanced when you actually do it. Just starting with not complaining and not over-explaining are great rules to remember. If you nitpick, people tune out. Easier said than done.

Gigi: And don’t over-explain! I work with clients on this all the time. Don’t go in and explain yourself—just share what you want, very clearly. Fewer words are better. People feel bad and think they have to explain, but it makes everything murkier. Clear communication is usually acknowledgment, request, and stating what you said. Work it out together.

Makena: So, we’ve talked about finding where you need better boundaries and how to communicate those boundaries healthily. 

The last question is: What if other people don’t respect my boundaries after I’ve set them? Gigi and I were just talking about this before recording. This is where agreements or contracts come in, even if they’re just verbal. If there’s a recurring breakdown, step back and have the conversation or put an agreement in place. 

The agreement should cover what you’re both agreeing to and, if it doesn’t happen, what’s the consequence? These don’t have to be huge ultimatums—there can be incremental consequences. Maybe the first time it happens, you agree on one thing, if it happens again, there’s another consequence, and so on. 

For example, in business, if an employee is written up three times, then they’re fired. Basically, incremental consequences can be agreed upon, so there’s no need for drama—you just state, “Here’s the consequence we discussed.” Does that cover it, Gigi?

Gigi: Yes. I’ve had many times with clients in work settings, and one way I suggest is to go to the person and say, “This isn’t working, what do you think the consequence should be?” It’s great because it lets them step into your shoes. 

You can even ask, “If it was you in my position, how would you handle it?” It gives people a different perspective instead of feeling attacked. Sometimes, kids come up with much stricter consequences than parents would, but it makes people start to think. For children, it teaches them to think in this way.

Makena: You may not do a contract with everything. If you’re talking about your partner taking out the trash, maybe you don’t have a contract, but you might sit down and write out all the household responsibilities, just to make it clear. If breakdowns keep happening, look at why, and use a collaborative approach: “Do you just forget? Are you super busy? Do you hate taking out the trash?” 

Understand where they’re coming from. Instead of complaining or blaming, say, “What’s going on?” Maybe they just forget, so you could suggest, “Should we set an alarm to remind you?” Collaboration instead of frustration or ultimatums.

Gigi: People are busy. Intentions are good, but they forget. With couples, even with the best intentions, they forget what was decided. So, simple things like making a list of household responsibilities and putting it on the fridge, with names by the duties. It helps—people see it and remember. Often, it’s not intentional, but without the reminder, they forget.

Makena: Absolutely.

Gigi: That sums it up.

Makena: Some common mistakes with boundaries: not keeping your word with yourself first. If you and your partner set up agreements but you don’t hold up your side, they’re likely not to either. Also, if a boundary is crossed, you need to uphold the consequence or broach the conversation. People get resentful and let it build up until it erupts. 

Step up: have the hard conversations, refer to agreements, and, if necessary, enforce policies—like reminding a coaching client of the cancellation policy. You can make exceptions, but be clear about the boundary. The mistake is letting people walk all over you. What are some other mistakes, Gigi?

Gigi: Another is thinking you have to make huge ultimatums, sweeping changes, or eliminate people from your life. Instead of being prepared and making agreements, people get upset and frustrated when others don’t follow boundaries, but don’t set up consequences to avoid drama. Then, always creating drama—delivering your frustration so forcefully that it creates defensiveness or blame, and not simply asking for what you want. Acknowledge, state what you agreed on, and ask, “How can we make this work in the future?”

Makena: Absolutely. To tie it all up: pick one area to start—you don’t have to tackle everything at once. Find one area you feel resentful, frustrated, or like you’re saying yes when you mean no. Ask yourself, is there anything I need to change in my own behavior? Get clear on what you want. Communicate, put agreements or consequences in place. Remember, you are training people how to treat you. If everyone crosses your boundaries, ask yourself if you’ve been clear, asked for what you want, and upheld your side of the agreements. Over time, you train people by keeping your word with yourself and with them.

Gigi: Yes, this is a meaty topic.

Makena: It is! If you have any questions, you can always reach out to us at support@wayofthemuse.com. If you know someone who would find value in this episode, please share it. That’s how we spread the word about this podcast. This is a powerful topic that can make a huge difference for you and those in your life. Thank you.

Gigi: Thank you, Makena. If you really liked this episode, please like it and give us stars on the podcast. We’d love for other people to see your feedback and share it with even more people.

Makena: Yes, ratings, reviews, shares—it’s all helpful. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Gigi: See you next time.

Makena: Hello, everyone. This is Makena Sage bringing you a solo podcast episode this week. Today, we’re going to talk about dialing in your sleep. This is one of my favorite topics personally. Sleep is something that is very, very important to me and hopefully important to you, too. If it hasn’t been at the top of your priority list, then maybe after listening today, you will reconsider that. We’re going to talk a little bit about why sleep is important and most importantly, what you can do to get more sleep, get better quality sleep, and really see the benefits of that in your life. So that is our topic for today.

First of all, I do want to have a brief kind of disclaimer that this is not medical advice. I’m going to be sharing my own experiences in the podcast today and what’s helped me personally. As always, please talk to your doctor about what’s right for you. Just use your own judgment. These are just my own experiences.

To me, sleep really isn’t a luxury. It is foundational. It is so, so key. It’s probably one of the number one—if I had to say life hacks, I’m not big on hacks, but if I had to say one of the things that you can shift or tweak or improve that will make the biggest difference across your entire life and your success, that would be sleep. Because when you get good sleep, everything in your life works better. Everything in your brain works better, in your body. It’s really, really core to everything. We’re going to go into why and how in just a moment.

If you find this episode helpful, please share it with someone in your life. Is there someone you know that could benefit from this or struggles with their sleep or said they want to get more sleep? We would be so honored if you would share this episode with them.

Going into why sleep is important: I’ve always loved sleep. As mentioned, when I was a kid I would sleep very deeply. I was one of those really great sleepers and in fact it was hard to wake me up a lot of the time, which I think was frustrating for my parents. I would sleep 10 or 12 hours a night a lot of the time. I don’t know about when I was a baby, but once I was a child and getting into adolescence, I loved sleep. It was pleasurable, enjoyable, restorative, something that I really just naturally slept well and prioritized. That’s not true for everyone, but I was really blessed in that regard.

Then as I got older, sleep quality started to decline a little bit, probably into my teens as I started staying up later at night and using more screens. Definitely once I got into college and university, I was just a huge overachiever. I was involved in not only a full course load at any given time, but involved in a lot of different activities and groups on campus. I worked multiple part-time jobs most of the time. I was an honors student. There were a lot of obligations on my time. Where could I sacrifice but in my sleep? I started sleeping fewer and fewer hours. My average week would be maybe four to six hours of sleep Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and then I would get to usually Thursday or Friday and have a huge emotional breakdown because I just was not functioning very well anymore. I was burning the candle at both ends and just exhausted.

This would start to hit me—the exhaustion and then the emotional component that came with that—by the latter part of the week. I just remember I would kind of fall apart. Then on the weekend, I would try to catch up on sleep, which research says isn’t really possible, but I would get deeper sleep, or get more sleep on the weekends, even though I went and partied, which probably meant my quality of sleep wasn’t that great because I was drinking alcohol a lot of the time. But I would crash out for, let’s say, ten hours a night on the weekend and then start all again on Monday.

So I went to the extremes with sleep, certainly with the way I slept when I was young and then the way I navigated sleep when I was in university. As a result of a lot of that, I dealt with a lot of health issues in those years after college—probably those next five to ten years. Even though I didn’t know it for a while what was going on, I had a lot of adrenal fatigue and hormone imbalance.

Because the way it works—there’s a lot of science to this and I’m not going to go deep into it—but if we’re continuously burning cortisol and adrenaline, that cortisol—we need it in order to live. If we are using a lot of it by not sleeping and by running on this go-go-go energy, then it actually starts to pull from other hormones in our body and transform those hormones into cortisol to make sure that we can survive. It’s a survival mechanism. It’s a very intelligent thing that our bodies do, but it leads to a lot of hormonal imbalance, or at least that was my experience. Over the years I had all kinds of challenges with that. One thing was being stuck in a state of fight or flight, which took a long time to wind myself out of. I had a lot of mood swings. I started having digestive issues. A lot of different stuff popped up in those years after college. Even though my sleep started to get better—better than it was then—I still was kind of like, the damage was done. There were other factors, of course, but I do think this was a big one.

I know life is full. You might have small children. I’m about to have a baby of my own, or maybe by the time this episode is airing, I may even have her here already. If that’s the case, your sleep is going to be impacted. You may have a very demanding job, but there are ways that we can still prioritize sleep, and that’s a lot of what I want to talk about. There are ways to optimize and prioritize sleep. Why not do as much as you can, even if your sleep is going to be interrupted or reduced, to improve the quality of your sleep?

I’ll tell you some of the reasons why you might want to take this seriously. These are just a few of the research-backed benefits of sleep. There are so many—you can just Google and you’ll find a huge list, or ask ChatGPT or whatever AI software you like—but some of the things that the research shows is that one night of poor sleep can reduce your mental sharpness by 30%. That’s a huge reduction. That’s almost one-third of your mental sharpness and capacity cut away just by having a night of poor sleep—not to mention emotional effects; we’re not even talking about the emotional side of things. This is just your ability to cognitively function, to think clearly, to work effectively.

This is one thing that when people say, “Well, I don’t have time to sleep more,” in my opinion—it actually costs you time. This is not just my opinion, it’s what the research shows. It actually costs you time not to sleep more, because we’re just not as effective. We can spend hours and hours on something that would take us a fraction of the time if we had gotten more sleep or better quality sleep. So this is something to consider if you’re one of those people that’s like, “Well, I just don’t have time to sleep more.” Think about how much more effective and productive you would be if you were sleeping longer and sleeping better quality.

Another statistic: chronic poor sleep is linked to a higher risk of certain cancers, especially breast and colon cancer. Now, this is just what the research currently shows. It’s probably linked to a whole lot more, not just cancers but other diseases. That’s another consideration. For your health, getting great sleep is one of the best things you can do.

Good sleep helps clear toxins in the brain that are actually linked to Alzheimer’s disease. If that’s a concern in your family or just something you’ve ever worried about, then getting good sleep is one of the biggest things you can do to prevent or reduce your chances of Alzheimer’s disease.

Good sleep regulates blood sugar. This is for people who struggle with weight, or if you have any kind of diabetes or pre-diabetes or anything like that. One of the biggest things is: can you dial in your sleep? If you dial in your sleep, you get enough sleep. Your blood sugar is so much more stable. You might just know this from the way you feel. I know if I get less sleep, I feel more hungry throughout the day, I eat more, it feels like my blood sugar is going up and down more. I just don’t feel as regulated. It can lower the risk of weight gain and also lower your risk of type 2 diabetes.

Getting good sleep is one of the best natural mood boosters. It actually has been shown to reduce anxiety and depression. And finally, it’s essential for memory, learning, and clear thinking.

This is just the very high level. I just wanted to give you a broad picture of some of the benefits of getting great sleep. But truly, there are so, so, so many more, and we’re only scratching the surface with the research on the impact of great sleep.

I did want to give one real-life example I heard on a recent podcast. LeBron James, who is an incredible basketball player (and also a billionaire, if you didn’t know that), really prioritizes sleep—at least eight hours a night. If he’s playing basketball, like when he is or was—I don’t even know if he’s actively playing—but he would sleep a lot more, like ten or more hours a night. He said it’s the best way he knows to re-energize his body and mind. He is just one example of someone who’s a very high performer, not only in sports but also in business, and he really credits sleep as one of the most important things that has helped him in his success. So take it from him if you’re an athlete or a business person. It’s one thing to hear the statistics; it’s another thing to hear that some of the world’s highest performers in a lot of different arenas know the power of really, really good sleep.

Let’s talk about—I want to call these “common sleep stealers.” What steals people’s sleep? These are things that many of us do without realizing that they’re making sleep harder. Or maybe we sort of know in the back of our minds, but we haven’t fully looked at it or admitted to ourselves that this is something we might want to change.

One that is commonly cited—and you are probably aware of on some level—is using screens or scrolling on social media at night. We’re talking especially once the sun goes down, because what happens here is it disrupts our brain chemistry. Throughout history and millennia, we developed as human beings to have the light of the sun, which starts out more bright and blue in the early part of the day and the middle of the day, and then actually becomes more orange and red as we get closer to sunset. Then, we have no light or very little light—maybe candlelight or fires. This was, for most of human history, the way our bodies were working.

Now, with screens, they produce a large amount of blue light. Blue light is typically more in the morning or the early part of the day. What’s happening here is it’s actually coming into our eyes and it disrupts things like melatonin, which is a hormone that is essential for good sleep. We naturally produce melatonin, but when you’re getting a lot of blue light in your eyes later into the evening or the night, it’s actually stimulating your brain, telling it that it’s earlier than it is, and it makes it very hard to go to sleep.

If you’re using screens past sunset or you’re scrolling on your phone late at night, there are some things you can do to help mitigate this. One thing is there are often blue light filters. I used to use an app for this. Now my computer has a filter—it’s not as dark as the app used to be, but it’s helpful. My phone also has it. I use Mac products, so I have a button I can push, a “night shift” feature, that makes the light on my computer more orange and cuts out more of the blue light. Same thing on my phone. If I click on the little sun in the settings and hold that down, I see “Night Shift off until sunset.” You can just Google “night shift,” or ask an AI to help you with this—make sure you know how to access the night shift feature on your computer and/or your phone.

I have mine set automatically on my phone to go on at a certain time and off at a certain time each day, so from sundown to sunrise, the night shift features on. It’s filtering more of that blue light and helping reduce that impact for me because it’s more orange light that’s coming through.

That’s one thing. If you don’t use Apple products or if you want another solution that’s even more effective, there is a software I used to use, I believe it was free, called f.lux—F-L-U-X. You download it to your computer and set that up to filter out the light for you.

The other thing you can use (and you may have seen some people doing this) is blue light blocking glasses. One thing I want to share is that not all blue light blocking glasses are created equal. There’s a lot of glasses companies that will say, “Oh, do you want to get the blue light blocking feature and add that to your glasses?” There’s nothing wrong with that—they help a little bit. But if your glasses are clear, meaning they don’t look orange, there’s a good chance they’re not blocking that much blue light. You might think you’re wearing blue light blockers, but find that it’s not really reducing the blue light all that much. Just do some research. If this is something you’re looking into, ask how much blue light does this particular set of glasses block. Most of the time, to block enough blue light to really make a difference, they would have to be orange tinted. Not maybe the most fashionable, but you can find some really cool ones these days. There are a lot of companies out there. You can look on Amazon or Google to find different kinds of blue light blocking glasses.

You would just put those on, especially at night after sunset. Wear them around your house, because there’s lots of blue light coming in—not just from your screens, but also from lights in your house. If you watch TV in the evenings, that’s another source.

You may want to set an alarm to remind you if you want to reduce your use of screens in the evenings. I set an alarm on my phone that is my wind down alarm. We’ll talk more about that later, but it goes off at 8:30 p.m. every night and that just tells me, “Hey, it’s getting late into the evening.” This is a good time to be off screens or to start to wind down and read a book. Some of these other things we’re going to talk about, that’s a great tip as well—try reading a book in the evenings instead of being on screens; that could be a really big, powerful switch.

Screens and scrolling at night is one of the most common sleep stealers. You may not believe me that it makes a huge impact, but I promise you it does and there’s a lot of research behind this. You’ll just have to test it out for yourself for a while. Just give it a shot—really reduce that blue light at night and ideally reduce your use of screens and scrolling. There’s more to it than just the blue light. Scrolling also activates a lot of areas of the brain and that can really disrupt your sleep.

There’s some really interesting research on this—I shared a podcast episode on another recent episode of this podcast from the Mel Robbins podcast, I believe it’s called “Before You Waste Time, Listen to This,” with a Harvard researcher who specializes in understanding the impact of social media on the brain. He talked about how basically, social media and stuff like that kind of numbs us out. We’re numbing, and then we go off social media and there’s this natural process that used to happen before we were on screens all the time, where we were processing our thoughts and emotions from the day in any open windows, like before we’re going to sleep at night or while we’re making dinner. But now we’re so activated all the time, and then we’re numbing out with these devices that we’re not getting that time, that open time we need to process mentally and emotionally what we went through that day or whatever it might be.

What happens is we can’t sleep because we stop scrolling, put our phones down, and we try to go to sleep. Not only is the blue light activating us, but all those thoughts, feelings, and emotions that we haven’t had time to process are flooding through our system. We can’t wind down—do you ever get that feeling? So then what most people do is they pick up their phone and start scrolling again, or they start working or whatever it might be, and we get into this cycle of “I can’t sleep,” but then we’re just filling our time and our brain with devices all the time. We end up in this loop that is hard to get out of. It’s not just about the blue light; it’s also about having open times where you’re not stimulated, especially as you get into the later part of the evening.

The second sleep stealer is not having a wind down routine. If you’re going straight from working—or even exercising in the evening—or putting your kids to sleep, or doing a whole bunch of different stuff, and you’re kind of wired up and then try to go straight to sleep, it’s tough to get your body to shift gears. Instead, create a routine, even if it’s ten minutes, that helps you mentally know that it’s time to shift and go into rest mode. For me, I take a bath almost every night. I love Epsom salt baths. I don’t always put salts in, but that can be very relaxing with the magnesium. Reading at night can be really great. That evening alarm I talked about is usually to cue me to start thinking about winding down and not just being busy or on screens. I’d recommend avoiding late night workouts, because if you work out too late into the evening it just wakes your body and brain up. For most people, unless it’s something like restorative yoga, you don’t want to be working out super late.

The third sleep stealer I want to talk about is ignoring your circadian rhythm. You may have no idea what a circadian rhythm is—that’s easy to look up—but it’s basically the natural rhythm of our bodies as it aligns to the clock, not the modern clock but more so the sun and seasons. We have this biological clock in our body that has developed over millennia to understand what time it is, what season it is, these kinds of things, based on our experience of light coming into our eyes and skin from the sun.

What’s happened as we’ve evolved as humans, especially in the last hundred or 150 years, is that we’re inside a lot more, not outside with our eyes getting exposed to the sun and our skin. By the way, this works even through the clouds to some degree. We’re out of connection to our natural biological clock, our internal circadian rhythm. More and more research is coming out about this and how challenging that is, how much that is impacting different systems of the body that have relied on that to know how to function optimally. Now we’re in this position of waking up, staying inside or driving in our car, going to work, being indoors there, and missing this whole connection to our circadian rhythms.

This can have an impact on a lot of different things, on our melatonin production, as mentioned, which helps us sleep, even on digestion. There’s a big link between irritable bowel syndrome or different digestive issues and not having connection to this circadian rhythm.

Let me tell you some things you can do that are very simple and very quick to help you start to realign your circadian rhythms. The biggest thing is getting your eyes in the sun first thing in the morning. As soon as you wake up—I have a dog, Chloe, so what I’ve started to do is, before I would just let her out in the morning and feed her, but now I actually step outside with her, and all I do is look toward the sun, whether there’s clouds or not. I look toward the sun with no sunglasses on, and try to get my eyeballs in the sun. It’s not too bright at that time, and just look at it for a couple minutes; you don’t have to look directly at it, but in the direction. That is really, really important because you’re telling your body what time it is, orienting to morning, whatever time it is. Ideally you do this a couple more times throughout the day, if possible. You want to get outside and get your actual eyes in the sun and even your skin, which has a lot of receptors, exposed to natural light.

The other best time, other than morning, is around sunset, because again, that red light starts to come in. If you look at a sunset or are outside walking around sunset, that’s going to cue your body that the sun is going down and that helps set your circadian rhythm. Morning sunlight exposure in the eyes and on the skin, and evening around sunset—those are the two most important times, but honestly the more you can do it throughout the day, the better. I don’t know the research around how long, but I just do a couple of minutes or maybe more if I’m walking. It doesn’t need to be a ton, and it can be really, really helpful for so many things—your health and your sleep.

Now sunglasses—let’s talk about those. I love sunglasses; I wear them frequently. But after learning about this, I started to question: do I need them all the time? Do I need them early in the morning, or in the evening if it’s sunset and I’m going for a walk? Or can I reduce my use of sunglasses, which block out a lot of that natural light we want hitting our eyes? That’s what I’ve done. In the middle of the day, I still wear them most of the time, but if I’m going for an evening walk with my husband, I put the sunglasses away. If I’m doing that couple minutes in the morning standing outside, I’m not wearing my sunglasses.

Everything else we’ve been talking about in terms of reducing blue light at night, wearing blue light blocking glasses, all of that is going to help your circadian rhythm. It’s going to support natural melatonin production and even digestion.

A couple other pro tips around this: We are very impacted by light as human beings, even if you think you’re not—even if you think, “Whatever, I can sleep in the middle of a bright room in the middle of the day”—that may be true, but there are often impacts to your quality of sleep that you may or may not be aware of. There’s a lot of research behind this: even a tiny light in your room at night can be disruptive, especially anything other than a red light. If it’s more like a red-hued light, it’s less likely to disrupt your sleep. If it’s green or blue or white or anything else, research has shown that it can really impact sleep, even if you’re wearing an eye mask and your eyes are covered. We have receptors on our skin, in different parts of our bodies. If you really want to optimize sleep, check for hidden lights at night in your room. 

All you do is turn off all your lights at night like normal, and after your eyes have adjusted to the darkness, maybe after lying there with your eyes closed, open them up and do a little scan around your room. Notice: “Wait, my clock has a light,” or “there’s this light on the wall that’s shining,” or “there’s a little light here off my power adapter,” or whatever it might be. See if you can eliminate or reduce some of those lights. I just had to put blue tape over something on my wall—a little alarm system that had a light blinking off it at night. I noticed when I’d wake up in the middle of the night, that light was hitting my eyes. If you can reduce these hidden lights in your room, that can be really helpful. Wearing an eye mask can also help. I sleep with an eye mask, even though it’s quite dark in my room. I’ve also trained myself to sleep with an eye mask, which is helpful when traveling. I have a really cushy, comfy one, and that helps reduce exposure to light as well. Blackout curtains are my other favorite thing—really making sure your room is as dark as possible at night helps the body sleep better.

A few other tips—I’ll go through these quickly. We have a sleep guide with some of my favorite products. If you don’t know what kind of eye mask to get or some things we’re talking about, we have a free guide I created because so many people were asking. You can get that at wayofthemuse.com/sleep. It’s a little PDF guide, and it has product recommendations and links to everything.

Other tips: we’ve talked about light a lot, so the next one is sound. If your partner snores or there’s ambient sound from outside, or you live in the city, sound can really disrupt sleep. I sleep with earplugs—my partner does as well. He likes the cheap ones from Amazon. Those don’t really work for my ears, so I get a nicer set that I reuse, the same pair every night. The brand I use is called Loop, and it’s their Dream earplugs—small, squishy, and comfy. I like those. That’s in the sleep guide as well.

A noise machine—I’ve slept with a noise machine for many years. We’ll see how this goes with a baby; there might be a period where that’s not possible, but a lot of people use noise machines for their kids now as well. You can get a noise machine or use an app—like Better Sleep—that plays ambient white noise or brown noise or pink noise. It’s non-repeating, static-like noise that drowns out other sounds. These two things are great—when we have guests, we’re like, “You don’t have to worry about making noise at night unless you’re yelling and screaming. We’re not going to hear you,” because we both sleep with earplugs and a noise machine.

Temperature is another big piece. Typically for most people, being on the cooler side at night, or having a warm blanket but a cool room, is best for sleep. We actually have a cooling and heating system for our bed—a mattress pad with coils that uses distilled water. Sunny’s got a control for his side of the bed, I have a control for mine, and we can each set it to our preferred temperature. In the summer, I like to set mine for cool—so does he. That keeps my side at whatever temperature—I do like 72 most nights, Sunny does even colder. We can heat or cool the bed as we want. In the winter I don’t use it as much, but our system can wake you up in the morning not with an alarm, but with heat—slowly getting hotter until you wake up, which is nicer than jolting awake to an alarm. We have recommendations in our sleep guide.

Sleep tracking can be really helpful to understand what’s affecting your sleep. If you’ve ever used an Oura ring—it tracks your sleep quality, time spent in REM versus deep sleep. It’s one of the best uses for the Oura ring, which tracks a lot of things, but I like it as a sleep tracker. There are other ones out there. People say, “Wow, I notice how much having a glass of wine at night impacts my sleep,” or “working out late into the evening,” or whatever. Some people have found, “I’m not getting any REM sleep at night—what’s that about?” Then they might talk to their doctor and address it. Tracking your sleep can be powerful to understand how much sleep you’re actually getting, and what factors impact sleep.

Mouth taping is something else I want to talk about. It sounds crazy, but it’s a trend—taping your mouth shut at night (not with scotch tape or strong tape, but with strips made for your mouth). They’re gentle, and keep your mouth from opening so you don’t mouth breathe. If you’re not a mouth breather, it may not be an issue, but I typically am. When I discovered mouth taping, it really helped me train myself to breathe more through my nose at night versus my mouth. There are so many health benefits—not only did it help my teeth, I got way fewer cavities and less bacteria building up at night, but often people who try it sleep deeper. It can even prevent snoring for some. Research it if you want, but know that it’s worth looking into. There’s a brand of mouth tape I really like in our sleep guide.

Sublingual melatonin is something I want to talk about. I am not a big fan of using a lot of melatonin. I think people overuse it—you become adjusted, and need more and more to get the result. I don’t think it’s great to put a ton of a hormone into our body. Ideally, we want to support natural production. I use it very sparingly. When I do, the two things that really work are: use a sublingual type (it hits your bloodstream through your mouth, not your digestive system, so you need much less); and use a specific brand I like (in our sleep guide). I use their 1mg chewable tablets (most people are like, “1mg, that’s nothing”), but believe it or not I use an eighth to a quarter of a pill—I’m microdosing melatonin. There are benefits to microdosing. You’re not putting a ton into your system. My husband does the same and finds he doesn’t need more than a quarter of a pill for deeper sleep. If you take higher amounts, some research shows it’s not great for sleep patterns—it can cycle you in a certain way that isn’t helpful. If you microdose, it’s just a gentle support. That’s my recommendation—do your own research, but I really like both the microdosing and not using it every night; I tend to do it maybe two to four times a week, cycling on and off.

All of these resources and more are in the sleep guide. I’ll give you that link again: wayofthemuse.com/sleep.

That was a lot of information! I feel like I bombard you sometimes, but I have so many tips and tricks and things I’ve researched over the years. This is one of my favorite topics. Hopefully you can take one or two things and apply them—maybe try something else next month and see how it goes.

So, what is one thing you could try this week? Think about that. Out of all we’ve talked about, what’s one thing you could do to optimize your sleep a little more?

Thank you again for listening, for being here, for prioritizing yourself. If you found this helpful, please share with someone in your life who would get value from it. It means the world to us. We’ll see you on the next episode. Bye.